Do Teflon & PET Cause Cancer?

[Adrian Wong]

Had a really interesting debate with folks at my condo. Thought I should share it with you guys, and see what you all think about it (the topic, NOT the arguing! ).

Originally Posted by tiganasfx

Are TEFEL those cookingwares with Teflon or Tefal coating? If there are any scrathes however slight , do not use them as they are known to cause cancer.

Check this out...

http://antiagingchoices.com/dental_c...ride_toxic.htm

Also http://www.cancer.ca/ccs/internet/st...-en,00.html#T6

Originally Posted by SHiGE

is those non-stick coated telfon kind of thing. some are scratched at the inner side (cooking) but almost majority are perfect condition in the inner. the outer (burning) got scratches in many of them.

i tot telfon coated cookingware is everywhere. and they are easily scratched after usage for few months if u dont treat it like a baby.

Originally Posted by tiganasfx

Simple treat them like a baby and dont use after they are scratched. I think the latest teflon cookingwares are actually hard to scratch nowadays.

Originally Posted by ricster

Teflon is actually a kind of plastic.

"Definition:
a trademark for polytetrafluoroethylene, a plastic with nonstick properties that is used as a coating, e.g. for cookware"

So if it's scratched & u still use it to cook, more of it will come off & get mixed up with your food. Would u wanna eat plastic?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Well, teflon is not only non-stick, it's one of the most inert substances known to man. In fact, when they were looking for something really, really inert to line the case of WW2 nukes, they used teflon. So, IMHO, ingested teflon will make the typical trip down and out our GIT without any real impact.

On the other hand, teflon has to be stuck to the pan. Very difficult to do that, obviously since it's non-stick! I'm not sure what they used to do that, but whatever substances they may use to form the bond may "potentially" be troublesome....

Originally Posted by tiganasfx

Couple of weeks ago there was a warning in the newspaper about re-using mineral bottle containers. Before the warning I see a lot of people re-using them. After the warning do you still there dare to re-use them?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Hmm.. What warning are you referring to?

FYI, you cannot trust everything you read in the newspaper. Check this out - http://www.foodfacts.org.za/siteindex/petbottlereuse

Originally Posted by tiganasfx

I think they are saying its only dangerous at high temperatures e.g. when cooking over a direct flame due to the fumes given out...

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Teflon™ and non-stick cookware and cancer risk

Non-stick cookware has raised concerns among the public about its possible association with increased risk of cancer. One concern is that cooking with non-stick products may increase cancer risk. Another concern is that potential cancer-causing chemicals used to make non-stick products are released into the environment during manufacturing.

Teflon and other brands
Non-stick cookware refers to cookware with a non-stick coating. All non-stick cookware is made up of a chemical called PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene). The same chemical is used to make GORE-TEX fabrics and some industrial products, such as specialized electronic wire insulation, hoses and gaskets.

Teflon is the brand name for DuPont’s non-stick cookware, but many other companies (for example T-Fal and Silverstone) also make non-stick cookware.

Cooking with non-stick cookware
The fumes given off from non-stick cookware used at higher temperatures are harmful to your health. Health Canada states that: “Non-stick coatings are a risk if they are heated to temperatures greater than 350°C or 650°F”.

Some studies show that heating non-stick coatings to 300°C (572°F) can create fumes that contain a suspected cancer-causing chemical (tetrafluoroethene-TFE) and several chemicals that are toxic to humans.

Currently, there is no evidence that eating small quantities of non-stick coating that has flaked off into your food is bad for you.

The use of non-stick cookware to reduce the amount of butter or oil used in cooking may be good for your health, but you should not use cookware with non-stick coatings at high temperature or leave it empty or unattended on a hot stove or in a hot oven. Empty pans can reach higher temperatures more quickly than pans containing food.

You should not use non-stick cookware for broiling or other high temperature baking and cooking. Temperature settings vary between appliances but as an example, olive oil typically begins to smoke at 210°C (410°F), below Health Canada’s recommended maximum temperature for using non-stick coatings (350°C/650°F).

Health Canada, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration do not advise against using non-stick coatings or other products containing PTFE, if used properly.

Chemicals used to make non-stick products
A number of chemicals are used to make non-stick cookware including TFE, a known carcinogen, which may also be present in the fumes given off by non-stick cookware used at high heat.

Another chemical used during the making of non-stick coating, PFOA (perfluorooctanoic acid), may be present at very low levels in the cookware, according to at least one study. Some studies have shown that exposure to PFOA over long periods of time may be linked to cardiovascular disease and prostate cancer, though this research is not conclusive and is continuing. Several studies show that PFOA causes cancer in laboratory animals. Based on these and other studies, the majority of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s Scientific Advisory Board believes that PFOA likely causes cancer.

PFOA has also been found in higher-than-expected amounts in humans and in our environment. Research into the source of these chemicals in humans and the environment is ongoing.

What Canada is doing
Health Canada advises against using cookware with non-stick coatings at high temperatures (above 350°C/ 650°F).

Health Canada and Environment Canada are currently assessing the potential health risks of exposure to PFOA. Their draft report is due in fall 2006 or early 2007. This assessment is part of a larger action plan to assess a group of related chemicals called PFCAs (perfluorinated carboxylic acids). Some PFCAs are believed to be of grea

Originally Posted by tiganasfx

It was in the Star Newspaper, front headlines.

It may be ok for the bottles in US but I will not trust them in Malaysia !

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Err.. Why the prejudice against Malaysian products? Frankly, a PET bottle is a PET bottle is a PET bottle. Where it's made isn't going to make it any better or worse.

As for Teflon, well, the article isn't actually accurate. Teflon is the DuPont's brand for PTFE. DuPont does not make cookware. Cookware companies like Tefal buy DuPont Teflon for use in their cookware.

IMHO, if you heat anything to a high enough temperature, it will give off fumes of some sort. Even pots that have enamels on the outside would give off noxious (and carcinogenic?) fumes if heated up enough.

Besides, do any of us really cook at 350°C??? Even my deep fryer can only reach 190°C!

If you do though, then you better take a good look at the non-stick flipper or spatula. If I remember correctly, they melt at something like 250°C to 280°C? I think it would be obvious to everyone that something is wrong long before they hit 350°C.

In any case, this would be like swatting a fly when a tiger is about to pounce on you. In other words, there are other far bigger issues in health to worry about, than the possibility of cooking at temperatures high enough to cause PTFE to fume up. IMHO, we should be worried more about HPV, diabetes, obesity, breast cancer, SMOKING!, etc.

As for PTFE, what the article says at the end of the day, is that using the PTFE-coated non-stick cookware at temperatures beyond what it's specified for is a bad idea. I think that's common sense which is why we have not seen a conclusive link between PTFE use and cancer.

Remember, PTFE has been used in cookware for decades. If cooking with PTFE can cause cancer, we would have seen a marked increase in cancers of the GIT. After all, non-stick cookware is so popular. But that fortunately has not come to pass because I don't think we ever hit that kind of temperature.

It's good though to know that if I leave my non-stick pan in a bonfire, it will create dangerous fumes, but as far as daily use is concerned, I honestly don't think there's any danger.

Originally Posted by tiganasfx

Well whatever la I am not here to change your mind, believe whatever you want to lo.

For me if it comes down to believing you or our ministry of health I guess I chose to believe the latter.

Originally Posted by ricster

1st of all, deep fryers use electricity. As such, it's already programmed to only go up to a certain temperature.

As for the case where the cookware goes until 350°C, it could happen because Chinese (not sure others) always heat the wok up till they can see smoke to make sure it's hot enough before putting in oil, then wait again till the oil is hot enough before putting in the ingredients. Before putting oil in, the wok may hit a very high temperature.

Hmm I am not sure what you are talking about... not exceeding 350C?

First of all please do tell whats the temperature of a butane/propane flame? (About 2500F i think) The flame is in contact with the bottom of your frying pan. Heat travels from the bottom of your pan to the top thru the walls of your pan. The reason why you never see this is because if your frying pan contains say water or oil, the temperature will not go above the boiling point of the water or oil as all the energy is used to vaporized the liquid and not into raising the temperature of the system.

If there are no liquid in the pan, collision with air molecules remove heat from the pan, so there is a balance between heating and cooling. However the temperature of the walls of your frying pan definitely exceeds 350C.

Originally Posted by Adrian WOng

Oh, neither am I. All I'm saying is that we should all do a little research on our own. Scepticism is ALWAYS a good thing.

TBH with you, my lecturer used to tell us stories of the hanky-panky that goes on in the MOH, in the name of preventing panic in the public. I wouldn't trust the word of ANY politician, or local media. Even if they are honest, they are not infallible.

Again, neither am I. I strongly urge you and everyone else to do your own research, and come to your own conclusions. Cheers.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

That may be possible for woks used with those huge burners, but those woks aren't coated with Teflon.

Besides, cooking oils do not have such a high smoking temperature. If you check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooking_oil, you will see that the highest smoking temperature is only 265 oC with safflower oil. I'm no chemist but I think if you pour in cold oil when the wok is 350 oC, it will flash into vapour so fast, some of it will splatter out.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

It's higher actually. Propane has a high temperature output, but temperature is NOT the key thing here. It's energy.

Okay, delving into my limited knowledge of physics here. When you burn propane, it releases thermal energy (as well as light). Not all of that energy is transferred to the wok/pan. A lot of it is wasted. If I'm not mistaken, only about 40% of the thermal energy generated is transferred to the wok.

Then you have to calculate the thermal transfer rate and heat capacity of the wok material (aluminium, iron, etc.) to determine how fast it heats up. A simpler way to find out would just involve using a thermal probe to check the increase in temperature.

Yes, I would agree with you that if left on heat long enough without anything inside the wok, it's not only possible to reach 350 oC, it's also possible to melt the wok itself. After all, aluminium melts at 660 oC or so. But if you ask me whether it's feasible for us to be cooking at 350 oC, I have to be more than just sceptical.

Not because I know enough about cooking technology to definitely put this urban legend to rest, but because if we all cook at 350 oC all the time, we would have burnt off the Teflon coating in our non-stick pans. I think we would have noticed that... if we haven't already noticed a sharp increase in lung cancer, or other types of cancer that Teflon may have been said to be responsible for.

Just my 2 sen la... I'm not here to tell you whether you should use Teflon cookpots or not. I don't have any shares in DuPont, FYI. I just think we should all step back a little when confronted by such allegations and do a little research ourselves before throwing out that cookpot / PET bottle.

If you have any opinions / facts to help clarify the situation one way or another, do post them!

[peaz]

LOL. Typical malaysian style 'argument'

IMHO, if teflon pans are a source of danger, I'm sure the links would have been apparent by now since teflon pans have been aroundsince 1946. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene)

Here's an interesting exerpt

Carcinogens in production

The United States Environmental Protection Agency's scientific advisory board found in 2005 that perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA), a chemical compound used to make Teflon, is a "likely carcinogen." This finding was part of a draft report that has yet to be made final.[9] DuPont settled for $300 million in a 2004 lawsuit filed by residents near its manufacturing plant in Ohio and West Virginia based on groundwater pollution from this chemical. Currently this chemical is not regulated by the EPA.

In January 2006, DuPont, the only company that manufactures PFOA in the US, agreed to eliminate releases of the chemical from its manufacturing plants by 2015,[10] but did not commit to completely phasing out its use of the chemical. This agreement is said to apply to not only PTFE used in cookware but also other products such as food packaging, clothing, and carpeting. DuPont also stated that it cannot produce PTFE without the use of the chemical PFOA, although it is looking for a substitute.

PFOA is used only during the manufacture of the product—only a trace amount of PFOA remains after the curing process. DuPont maintains that there should be no measurable amount of PFOA on a finished pan, provided that it has been properly cured

Therefore, it's not the pan that is dangerous but the chemical compound producing it.

Although I can't say it's 100% safe (nothing is anyway), I'd probably worry more about getting rid of hydrogenated oil and poly-saturated oil and exercise more and not smoke at all.

If anyone argues this and is a smoker... well, i rest my case. Seriously.

[Adrian Wong]

Well, those against PTFE seem to have two arguments.

1. Ingesting PTFE flakes can cause cancer.

2. Heating PTFE-coated pans to 350oC will release carcinogenic fumes / substances into the food being cooked.

[peaz]

PTPE itself is so inert that it'll do less harm then breathing the smokey air imho.

as for exceeding 350oC. i doubt it's possible la. pans are built to transfer just the right amount of heat to the cooking surface... otherwise, why the heck does those pans cost like hundreds to thousands even!

Of course, do go and buy those no-brand RM20 teflon pans la. those pans would probably not have a well designed thermodynamics and would probably have 'hot spots' that could potentially heat up that high. but then again, it's not likely to heat above 300oC so easily.

[peaz]

Oh and perhaps just to add as well, teflon pans are not supposed to be used like a chinese wok! They are meant for different cooking styles! There's a reason why chinese woks are chinese woks.

[Adrian Wong]

Originally Posted by peaz

PTPE itself is so inert that it'll do less harm then breathing the smokey air imho.

as for exceeding 350oC. i doubt it's possible la. pans are built to transfer just the right amount of heat to the cooking surface... otherwise, why the heck does those pans cost like hundreds to thousands even!

Of course, do go and buy those no-brand RM20 teflon pans la. those pans would probably not have a well designed thermodynamics and would probably have 'hot spots' that could potentially heat up that high. but then again, it's not likely to heat above 300oC so easily.

I guess the question everyone is arguing about is whether we will achieve a temperature of 350oC when we cook... or like ricster said above, when you heat up the wok before pouring in the oil.

[Adrian Wong]

Originally Posted by peaz

Oh and perhaps just to add as well, teflon pans are not supposed to be used like a chinese wok! They are meant for different cooking styles! There's a reason why chinese woks are chinese woks.

Hehe.. Yeah, Chinese woks do not have Teflon coatings because the style of cooking will destroy the coating very quickly.

Besides, they don't need to be non-stick.

[Trinity]

This was big news here in the US a few years ago. They called it "the teflon flu" Flu-like symptioms caused by breathing fumes from a very overheated pan. Never heard about any cancer risk before.

No problem for me, I stick with my old iron skillets. And stainless steel pans and pots.

Now the big "deal" is "Pop corn lung" from breathing the fumes from microwave popcorn...

[pyroboy1911]

lol, my chemistry assignment for last semester is on teflon. apparently, it is not teflon itself which sticks to the pan, it is stuck using a kind of adhesive. and like wat peaz said, dun try to use teflon under very very high temperaqture, as the adhesive layer may lose it's strength nad condition. as for the danger of teflon, i did see all those argument, but did not look any further, since my topic is related to how teflon stick to the pan and not the issue regarding teflon.

about the fumes, i always leave the pan on the stove, then go watch tv until i realize the air is kinda smoky, yet i'm still alive rite now...

[Adrian Wong]

Originally Posted by Trinity

This was big news here in the US a few years ago. They called it "the teflon flu" Flu-like symptioms caused by breathing fumes from a very overheated pan. Never heard about any cancer risk before.

No problem for me, I stick with my old iron skillets. And stainless steel pans and pots.

Now the big "deal" is "Pop corn lung" from breathing the fumes from microwave popcorn...

Teflon flu??? Must go check it out online.

Wow.. There's even popcorn lung?? Seriously??