There are many controversial subjects in the world - religion, sex, football. But there is really no controversy as far as the bizarre claim that "vaccines cause autism" is concerned - THERE IS NO SUCH LINK between vaccines and autism! The science is very clear about this. However, it doesn't stop crazy people from spreading FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) about that. And when I say crazy, I mean CRAZY. You will never understand madness or insanity until you have encountered an anti-vaccination proponent. Imagine a group of them! No amount of logic or fact can persuade them. They live in their own little world of evil scientists and doctors who want to use vaccines to poison children, or control their minds, or some other equally nefarious plans. Never mind the fact that their hero, Andrew Wakefield, was exposed as a liar who manipulated the results of his study for financial gain. Never mind the fact that no other scientist has been able to replicate his findings, or find any link between vaccines and autism. Everything is a lie to them. Scientists, doctors and nurses who are parents themselves, often to autistic children, are portrayed as corrupt or stupid - they are either being paid off or they are too stupid to understand the link between vaccines and autism. Scientists, doctors and nurses who studied for years, and have a historical perspective of diseases that have ravaged mankind over the millennia, have all been hoodwinked by the evil pharmaceutical companies about the effectiveness and safety of vaccines - all in the name of making money (even as they claim that the same companies are killing their own customers!). As an outspoken parent of an autistic child on this subject, I am regularly asked to offer my views on the subject. What I have tried to do in each case is point out the facts and let the readers judge for themselves. Recently, I was invited to do so in a Facebook group called Raw Food Today. Almost immediately, the anti-vaccination proponents in the thread started fighting back. Initially, they started by posting rebuttals, but once they realized that their rebuttals were easily rebuffed by simple logic and facts, they started hurling personal accusations and insults. Typical technique of folks who have no facts to rely on. It finally became an epic 350 post battle over 4 days between me and the anti-vaxxers. Along the way, a pharmacist came in to offer his view. They attacked him too, and he left, presumably disgusted. At the end of the 350 posts, I finally left because they had nothing more than insults left to hurl at me. There were really no facts or arguments that they could present - just more ad hominem attacks. In any case, I felt that I have more than adequately presented the scientific evidence on the subject, and reached my actual target - the silent readers in that group. Just in case their administrators who are also anti-vaccination decide to delete the thread, I copied out the entire thread for everyone to read. Enjoy...
Patrick Ong Need your views here. Is there any link between vaccination (not sure which vaccination) and autism in young children? Thanks in advance. Steven Tang Lai Chuan : Likely Mummy Juls : That research wasn't true and the Dr who spread that claim has been barred from practicing. Steven Tang Lai Chuan : Vaccination is d injection of bacteria or virus. Once body sense these, it wil hav high fever to fight againt it. If fever too high, put on medication n likely likely as wat d book said. Steven Tang Lai Chuan : I wil say the Dr is telling d true. Now a lot of health book written by Dr condemn abt modern medication which wil crate more illness. U can read a book written by Robert s Mendelson or goolge it. Alia Kearney : Go to 'our healthy unvaccinated children' Facebook group. Plenty of information and articles there regarding vaccine injuries Alia Kearney : Or maybe it's our healthy unvaccinated babies. ManHon Shiew : Breaking: Courts discreetly confirm MMR vaccine causes autism Siew Yeen : Since it's the combined MMR vaccination which may lead to autism, do parents have the choice of having the vaccination being administered individually like it used to? Steven Tang Lai Chuan : This is d regulation. No choice, otherwise cant study. Wan can v do fever after vaccination gv d child drink more water, raw fruit n vege to neutralise d acidic toxin cause by d vaccin. Hope next generation can abolish tis after more n more Drs voice out. Shan Yap : Mummy Juls One needs to hear both sides of the story. Similarly, the research that 'concluded' that MMR vaccines is safe and has no link to Autism is also fraudulent. the data has been manipulated. This is THE research that is cited by most pead and doctors today when they are asked about link between MMR and Autism. Well, seems the research was manipulated and the director responsible for the research has embezzled 2mil of research funding and is now a fugitive ;-P I can give you another 70 independent journals that caution us about vaccination. Vaccine Autism Cover-up Exposed by Fraud | Health Impact News Mummy Juls : Shan Yap I really dont know what else to believe anymore. To do or not to do, is the question. Mummy Juls : Adrian Wong Your insights would be useful. Shan Yap : Just make sure your child is VERY VERY Healthy and has no allergy if you decide to vaccine. Vaccines should not be a one size fits all solution. Eric Goh : In short - Yes! Mummy Juls : Is there a doctor who can confirm this? Shan Yap : Is there a doctor who can sign a letter to confirm that it does no harm categorically? Eric Goh : I do not need a Dr to confirm what I can see with my own eyes. Vaccinations made my child autistic. I will forever regret the decision to trust Drs and Big Pharma so much. Its up to individual parents to decide who to trust. Sagayah Mary : I think OHUB (Our healthy unvaccinated babies)is the right group to discuss this issue. Parents should make their own research, you can also contact NASOM to get clarification if you need. I think no doctors will ever sign letter to confirm it won't harm. I did my own research and i stand on my decision. Mummy Juls : Is there a support group for this? Can anyone recommend please. It was discussed in The Breastfeeding Advocates Network, but not in detail. Mummy Juls : Thank You Sagayah Mary You just answered my question! Sagayah Mary : Mummy Juls, lots of kids suffered after MMR and few countries banned MMR like France and Japan. If I am not mistaken a bill to make it not a must in US is taking place too. Just sharing my info. My 2nd suffrred with DTPA+HIP - the vaccine she took at 5th month. Don't shoot me..so it depend on individual decisions. Mummy Juls : What is DTPA+HIP? Eric Goh : This is Flu Vaccine... read the fine print... Sagayah Mary : against Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis, Poliomyelitis, and invasive disease Mummy Juls : Thanks Sagayah Mary. Steven Tang Lai Chuan : Eric. I m very sorry to hear tat. Tis is why i heard fr a lot of parents n i m promoting natural medication now. Hope v can promote together. I m not sure how long ur child hav tis. But as this proffesor theory. If gv him/her raw vege n fruits. No medician, meat, egg, nut, junk food etc. When his toxin in body cause by vacinne eliminate out. There is still a hope his cells will b regenerated n back to almost normal. But this wil go thru very painful detoxifing process. e.g. Fever may more than 43, womit, diarrhea, coughing, fainted for few hour or few days etc. If u r interested in his book, i can send one for u FOC. Patrick Ong : Eric Goh, I'm sorry to hear what you r going thru. But Is it ok if u share with us ur experience prior to and after d vaccinations? Sagayah Mary : Eric Goh, I am sorry too. Is your child going through any therapy? Eric Goh : Thanks for the support. There are parents here and in other forums with similar issues. We all support each other in various parent groups and such. I am glad to have them to lean on at times... Its a painful to see your child suffer yet we are unable to help. We have put him thru different remedies and therapies and what not... Still hoping and trying to find a cure. Any suggestions are welcome. You can reach me at [email protected] Mummy Juls : Eric Goh Sorry too.. Two friends of mine are in the same predicament. They say its due to injections. Sagayah Mary : Eric Goh, PMed you Mummy Juls : Adrian Wong You could probably share some suggestions that would be helpful here... Alia Kearney : I have met with a homeopathic doctor who discussed the negative effects of vaccines with me. She also provides services to detox the body from vaccines. Mummy Juls : Alia Kearney Detox for child from vaccine. Interesting. Eric Goh : Which homeopath is this? Appreciate if you could share... Alia Kearney : this is their website. She's located at Centrepoint, bandar utama Mummy Juls : Alia Kearney The website link please.. Thanks. Alia Kearney : Oops forgot to attach the link haha. My bad xxxxxxxxxxxxx.com Eric Goh : Alia Kearney TQ Bibie Hamid Moses : Vaccine is a hot and sensitive topic here in USA. I have a baby 11 months now, my hubby refused to vaccinate him till he is a bit older! Patrick Ong : Janice Low Steven Tang Lai Chuan : Raw green vege n fruit is d best nutrient n detoxify food. No side effect. But need to reduce junk food to help d body. Fred Pui : Mmr Sagayah Mary : Here is one of a good homepath my friends from OHUB recommended -> Dr. Suriyakhatun this is her FB name and she is at cyberjaya Sagayah Mary : I am seeing Dr Hashimee at Kg Pandan 01x305092x / 0x9287901x BlUe MoOn : Sagayah Mary Dr.suriyakhatun at Jalan Pahang now and weekend at melaka
Adrian Wong : To those who say that there are always two sides of the story, I can only say, NOT where science is concerned. In science, either something is verified to be true, or it's not. There are no two sides of the story. There is only a scientific conclusion based on repeatable and verifiable findings, which remains true even if you choose not to believe it. I can conclusively tell you that there is NO LINK whatsoever between autism and vaccines. Here's why... 1. The ONLY study that has suggested a link between the MMR vaccine and autism is the infamous Andrew Wakefield study. However, it has been proven that he changed the results in order to come up with the conclusion, and committed various other ethically dubious sins, which resulted in not only the retraction of the study but also in his removal from the medical register. So he is no longer Dr. Wakefield, but just Wakefield. 2. Since his study, there have been hundreds of independent studies trying to replicate or confirm his results. All have failed to show any similar link between the MMR vaccine and autism. 3. Do note too that Andrew Wakefield himself is NOT against vaccines. He actually developed his own monovalent vaccines designed to replace the MMR before he came up with the study. Obviously, he was hoping that his study would result in the MMR vaccine being replaced by his own monovalent vaccines. Does this sound kosher to you? 4. Scientists have confirmed that autism has a genetic basis. In fact, a recently published study showed that autistic kids have missing genes - BBC News - Deleted genes 'offer autism clues' 5. Two independent teams have developed two different methods to detect autism in toddlers as young as FOUR MONTHS OLD and SIX MONTHS OLD respectively. The MMR vaccine is only administered from 12-15 months of age, so unless the MMR vaccine time travels, it CANNOT be the cause of autism. 6. The prevalence of autism in unvaccinated children and vaccinated children ARE THE SAME, so obviously, not vaccinating your children is not going to reduce their chances of being autistic. It's just going to put them at risk of suffering from and possibly dying from a completely preventable disease. Please note that doctors and scientists are people just like you and I. They have families and kids too. In fact, many have autistic kids as well. So to imply that they would risk their own kids in order to what.. make money? control your kids' brain? take over the world? ... is ludicrous. Leslie Ling : Hi folks, my son has been diagnosed with high functioning autism (ie. Asperger Syndrome) in Australia last year after we migrated here. The Developmenta Paed in Sunway Medical only diagnosed him as ADHD when were back home in KL. I have also read about the ill effects of MMR recently and linking it to Autism. After reading about this it seems to join the dotted lines why my son was so normal until he was kindergarten going and the hyperactiveness and the social inappropriateness starting surfacing. My question to Alia Kearney is would it help kids who are in their early teens (son is 12) ie it's so long past the vaccination period; would the detox still be effective. I'm returning to KL in Dec for summer break and would like to give this a try if it's still applicable to kids in their teens. Adrian Wong : Sorry but please don't call a homeopath a doctor. That would be like calling the guy who bottles mineral water a doctor. Do you even know what homeopathy is? Homeopathy involves diluting any active ingredient to the point that the resulting "potion" often lacks even a single molecule of the active ingredient. So you are basically drinking.. WATER. Just how effective is that? "The low concentration of homeopathic remedies, which often lack even a single molecule of the diluted substance, has been the basis of questions about the effects of the remedies since the 19th century. Modern advocates of homeopathy have proposed a concept of "water memory", according to which water "remembers" the substances mixed in it, and transmits the effect of those substances when consumed. This concept is inconsistent with the current understanding of matter, and water memory has never been demonstrated to have any detectable effect, biological or otherwise. Pharmacological research has found instead that stronger effects of an active ingredient come from higher, not lower doses." If you want to believe in homeopathy, that's fine. Just drink water. That's what it really is. And you will save on their "consultation" fee. Leslie Ling : Adrian Wong - have you seen this article which states that the courts have quietly confirms MMR vaccines causes autism. Hope you can shed some light on this. Courts quietly confirm MMR Vaccine causes Autism Adrian Wong : Indeed, I can -> http://forums.techarp.com/adrian-wong/27616-courts-quietly-confirm-mmr-vaccine-causes-autism.html That's what I posted about the issue. Patrick Ong : Adrian Wong, yes there are numerous 'independent' research that has been conducted by scientists to prove otherwise. but just how 'independent' are these research being conducted? How do we know that these so called private foundations funding these research are not link to d giant pharmaceutical Co? truth is we don't. Vaccines are multi billion dollar industry, lots of money are involved. Is our kids being made as lab mice? R d vaccines ready for human use or they need further research/test b4 being given to us? They r so many unanswered questions. Alia Kearney : Rob Schneider-Vaccine Courts & Big Pharma Corruption ! - YouTube Adrian Wong : Interesting picture by Eric Goh. It shows the ignorance of the picture's creator. Read up on how flu vaccines are produced. They are actually produced on a yearly basis because the influenza virus is highly variable and every year, the strains change. 6-9 months BEFORE the annual epidemic is set to begin, WHO comes up with their top 3-4 strains they think will strike in winter, because it takes time for manufacturers to produce enough vaccines for the winter season. The individual vaccines are produced for each targeted strain in fertilized chicken eggs, before being combined to make the actual vaccine. It obviously takes time and effort to make these vaccines. So tell me - how do you make the new batch of vaccine and perform a controlled trial before the new season starts?
Siew Yeen : I have seen an interview recently about a kid with Asperger / Autism (can't remember which) who was healed and lived to be a pretty smart kid in his teens. I couldn't find that clip but have found some articles about how various kids condition have improved through diet. Adrian Wong, Autism can be confirmed before 6 months? Is this method readily available given the widespread of this problem? I also wonder why single vaccines cannot be had? Parents can pay for it if genuinely concern. Then nobody would be at risk. Adrian Wong : Patrick Ong : Ask yourself these simple logic questions. 1. What is the possibility that ALL of those independent studies were done by corrupted scientists? 2. What's the possibility that there are NO parents, or parents with autistic kids in all those research teams? Remember, the prevalence of autism is 1 in 50 children. 3. Why do you suspect all the other independent studies while you refuse to accept that Andrew Wakefield published a fraudulent study in order to make money and further his own vaccines? 4. Sure, the vaccine industry is worth about $24 billion a year. But it is not a money maker for the pharmaceutical industry. In fact, it is only a small portion (just 8%!) of their $300 BILLION a year industry. In fact, many of them are trying to get OUT of the vaccine industry because it doesn't make much profit for them. 5. You may have many questions, and frankly, most of them have answers. The only question really is whether you wish to accept those answers or not. FYI, most of us were vaccinated when we were young. We are healthy and well today. What makes you think our kids are being made guinea pigs? Vaccination is an old medical technique, okay? It's nothing new. Arguing about whether it is effective or not is like arguing whether driving a car at over 80 kmh will cause our heart to stop pumping blood. Adrian Wong : Siew Yeen : I believe this is the kid you are referring to -> 15 year-old Genius with Autism In Line to Win Nobel Prize Yes, you can read about it here - http://forums.techarp.com/adrian-wo...tism-link-has-been-conclusively-debunked.html I don't think it's prevalent here BUT I can assure you that I can tell the difference even when my son was just 4-5 months old. If you are a keen observer and look for eye contact and babbling, you can detect signs of autism way before his/her first birthday. Single vaccines CAN be had but there is NO VALUE in doing so. It only traumatizes the child more because you need to inject him/her 3-4 times instead of just once. The industry is moving towards multivalent vaccines, not monovalents. Plus, the vaccines have now been refined to the point that they have far fewer antigens than are present in older vaccines. So I really don't see what's the concern. Fred Pui : Autism is a very very wide spectrum. My nephew whom is completing his medicine degree in Melbourne told us this: if you do not know what is wrong with a child, then diagnose the child as autistic. Fred Pui : we can debate as much as we like on what caused autism in a child, neither side is going to come to a mutual conclusion. Too much money at stake for the pharma industry on one hand. All I want to contribute in this thread is that, we had an autistic daughter and she is fine now thanks to a IAHP (non-profit) based in Philadelphia, USA. If anyone is seeking help, look no further. iahp.org | Fred Pui : Our daughter was tested to have high mercury content in her body, through diet control we managed to get rid of most of it. Why do they use mercury (a highly toxic heavy metal) as a preservative in MMR I wonder. Alia Kearney : Adrian Wong. You say that we were all vaccinated as children and we are fine. Yes, that's true. But have you seen the difference in the amount of vaccines administered when we were kids compared to what it is now? The list of childhood vaccines has tripled, and all before a child's first birthday. I had all the vaccines that came out because my mum felt that it was important. but a lot of them, I only had later in my childhood. and the most recent being HPV in my late teens. So my concern, as a parent, is that we are riddling a small baby's body with all these foreign dead and live viruses, heavy metals etc at one go. Another thing is that vaccines are not full-proof. The recent measles outbreak in the UK? The data showed that 70% of those kids were in fact, vaccinated. Alia Kearney : you can now bombard me with all your scientific facts. But it will not change my mind. I am a mother, and I love my children more than life itself. I would do anything to protect them, and this is my choice not to vaccinate (at least not all in one go before their first birthday). I'm not saying I don't believe in vaccines, but I'm saying that I don't think it's a good idea to do it all before a baby's immune system has fully developed. I've done all my research, and I'm comfortable with my decision. As a parent, I'm doing what I believe is the best for my child. Isn't that what we are all doing? Whether we choose to vaccinate our kids or not, parents should at least be allowed the choice after hearing both sides of the story, and after much research Vivian Lum : Alia, when will the baby's immune system be fully developed? I havent gv my son any vaccines after 9 months, he is 2yo now. And how long should i 'gap' between each vaccine? Eric Goh : Interesting point by Adrian wong Eric Goh : however if the vaccine is based on what WHO takes as the top 3 or 4 virus, and are produced 6 to 9 months before d annual flu season, how sure are you that the vaccines would work, esp as you put it the strains are highly variable and changes? Grace Ng : so far if I read correctly, only MMR vaccines seems quetionable. I am a mother of 4 mo LO. I am giving him all the compulsary vaccinations, Rotavirus and Pnemococal...& will AVOID MMR since we read too much negative things about this vaccine. Is this okay? Or I should avoid the others too? Siew Yeen : MMR is a combined vaccine against measles, mumps and rubella.
Sagayah Mary : to add Alia Kearney, we took few vaccines and those are not combination vaccines. Look at DTPA+HIP - this is a combo..they got 6 combo in one vaccines, did they ever tested it perfectly for few years to identify any side effect?same goes the MMRV - combo of chicken pox and MMR i think. There goes my doubt. But to make our own decision to stop vaccination in our family was a very tough decision we made. But we spoke openly to our family members who are senior doctors in India n they gave us a very good answer where we know our decision was right. Leslie Ling : Let me add on, when it comes to our kids it's is difficult to be so rational and so "scientific" Honestly back in 2001/2002 if I've heard about some of these concerns I would also think twice or thrice about whether to "just" follow the hospitals SOP (standard operating procedure). It is really physical and emotionally exhaustive living and taking care of child which is on the Autism Spectrum. For my son he's intelligent and with very high IQ but it's sad to see him unable to fit in socially.....so what I would like to say is there is no right or wrong answers here but all parents only want the best for their kids. Jasmin Choy : Fact, babies today have far more vax than we had when we were babies. Jasmin Choy : Fact, you can delay a lot of vax until the baby is a bit older. What's the Paed's rush? Us Malaysian parents are already so paranoid. We don't let our angels near any sick person, we don't live in a dirty dumpster. Sagayah Mary : Jasmin Choy, that is what my DRs relation said..malaysia ..clean..and we are paranoids Vivian Lum : Jasmin, which are the vax that can be delay and what will be the 'suitable' age? Jasmin Choy : Teri Liew and expert mommies from the 'our healthy unvaccinated children' group, do you have a list drawn up? Teri Liew : Vivian Lum, my eldest got 3 jabs by one month old. ( smacks my self all the time for not researching more when someone mentioned their unvaccinated kids r healthier than their vaccinated kids) my other 3 kids including the down syndrome boy zero jab. after my eldest, I sat down n spent hundreds of hours trying to learn why. I was shocked beyond words. I mean cmon no one no one ever told me that vaccines can cause DEATH. and a host of diseases n autoimunne diseases. All my 32 yrs of life I always always thought vaccines are safe and it is must n it will protect. Boy, I was shocked outta my pants when I researched. multiple sclerosis, lupus, eczema, encephalitis, bronchitis, bronchiolitis, sjs, type 1 diabetes, cancer, sids, syncope, pharyngitis, and many many other fancy names disease which r not so fancy to have, all are side effects of vaccines. so I researched the history of vaccines n found that ALL diseases were in decline BEFORE vaccines were introduce. and shocking shocking, I read that in all outbreaks, over 80% are fully vaccinated. if u ask me, I will say no vaccine is safe BUT I m not a loctor. I m just a mother with 4 kids that have nvr seen doctor for illnesses nor taken a drop of drugs . All I want is healthy children. unlike myself who grew up sicl. I was of course vaccinated. Sagayah Mary : In OHUB we don't maintain vaccines delay list. Basically no vaccines right Teri Liew? Teri Liew : yes. for me n many parents. especially those that hve experience first and the damage vaccine did to their kids. Teri Liew : Eric Goh, I know a few parents with autistic kids going through detox at dr. chan www.natural-health.com.my before you attempt, I would strongly suggest u read this book. CEASE THERAPY by dr. tinus smits. u need to be aware of the healing reactions n the time frame. it is not a month or a year thing. and it is not very cheap either. ppl may deny but the fact is it has happened. anyone can search the US VAERS database and find out the amount of reports filed. even then CDC estimated it at only 105 or less reporting. Adrian Wong : Alia Kearney : And that's a bad thing? The more vaccines we have, the more diseases we can prevent. It's that simple. You are also missing the point that we have been able to refine vaccines so that vaccines now have far fewer antigens than they did in the past. Back in the old days, we would be subjected to 3000+ different antigens in just 5 vaccines. Today, there are less than 130 different antigens in the 11 vaccines most children take. Source - Addressing Parents? Concerns: Do Multiple Vaccines Overwhelm or Weaken the Infant?s Immune System? Therefore, the antigenic load from vaccines is exceedingly small compared to what our babies are exposed to every single day. Heck, they get way more antigens suckling their mother's breasts than from a vaccine. Here's another thing to consider. If you inject ALL 11 vaccines in your baby at the same time, the amount of antigen would only "take up" 0.1% of your baby's immune system. That's how little antigens vaccines have these days. Source - Addressing Parents? Concerns: Do Multiple Vaccines Overwhelm or Weaken the Infant?s Immune System? As for the UK outbreak, I believe you are referring to the Swansea outbreak - BBC News - Swansea measles epidemic: Worries over MMR uptake after outbreak If you read properly, you will note that NONE of the vaccinated kids (67.5%) were infected. Those who were infected (1200 of them, of which 88 were hospitalized and 1 died) were in the NON-vaccinated group (32.5%). I believe you got confused when they mentioned that Swansea had a vaccine uptake of 67.5%. That only meant that 67.5% of the kids in Swansea got vaccinated. That's way below the herd immunity level of 95% which would have protected even those who were not vaccinated. It does not mean that the vaccinated kids got infected (they didn't). It only meant that the vaccinated kids could not prevent an outbreak of the disease through herd immunity.
Adrian Wong : Fred Pui : They have not used thiomersal (thimerosal) in almost all vaccines for many years now, so if mercury was a concern for you, then it's no longer a concern now, is it? Also, thiomersal isn't mercury. It is a compound that contains some mercury. The dose of mercury isn't significant. You would get more mercury eating fish than from thiomersal. But like I said, it's no longer used in vaccines. If anyone is considering mercury chelation therapy, let me remind you that people have died from it, and a study has shown that the chelating chemical can cause cognitive and emotional issues in the patient. Source - Stokstad E (2008). "Stalled Trial for Autism Highlights Dilemma of Alternative Treatments". Science 321 BlUe MoOn : not all baby suitable to vaccines.it depend on body.my baby got swollen lymph nodes and medical doctor told me it due to vaccines reaction of bcg.his body can't accept this vaccines.for me only kids/ people/parents that suffer or have experience can understand how u feel. Adrian Wong : Alia Kearney : I'm sorry but I disagree with you. I'm a father. Do you not think I would also love my children as much as you do? You claim to have done your research, but have you really done so? Did you read up on the effects of polio, measles, influenza? Did you read up on how many kids got crippled, killed by these diseases that are now completely preventable? I have already pointed out several LOGICAL reasons why the MMR vaccine cannot possibly cause autism. It's like investigating a crime. Could the suspect have killed the victim if the suspect was not in the same country at that time? Can the MMR vaccine really cause autism if autism can be detected months before the vaccine was administered? Was the poison really administered through the wine if people who didn't take the wine also died? If vaccines are the cause of autism, then why is the prevalence of autism in the non-vaccinated group EXACTLY THE SAME as the vaccinated group? Can two people drink the same poisoned wine, with no ill effect on one person but instant death for the other? If two kids from the same family were given the same vaccines but only one has autism, attributing autism to the vaccine would mean the vaccines can pick and choose their victims. See? I'm not bombarding you with scientific facts. I'm now throwing these logical questions out for you to ponder. Adrian Wong : Jasmin Choy : The reason why they have a specific timelines is because they want to ensure that the babies are immunised before they come into contact with those diseases. Vaccines only work if they are taken in advanced of any contact with the disease, and it takes time for your baby's body to produce the necessary antibodies. Delaying those vaccinations is like gambling. If you are lucky, your child makes it to vaccination day without getting infected. If you are unlucky, your child gets infected. When that happens, the vaccine is useless. So the question is do you really want to gamble with your child's health? Adrian Wong : Eric Goh : No, there are no guarantees but the good news is.. from experience, the scientists in WHO can come up with a good mix that will cover the variants. Remember, they will base their analyses on the previous year's variants. Because of the high variability of the influenza virus in the wild, no influenza vaccine can guarantee full protection. If you get infected by a different variant, you may get no protection, or partial protection. That's why no pharmaceutical company will ever guarantee that their influenza vaccine can offer any degree of protection against the current year's viruses. That would be like a fortune teller guaranteeing you his predictions! But it is better than nothing. For certain, influenza vaccine has been proven to cut infectious rates and mortality. Adrian Wong : Sagayah Mary : What's so special about combination vaccines? Worrying about it is like worrying whether eating KFC together with pizza and rice will kill you. Whether you inject it separately 6 times, or in a single shot -> it's the same thing. They made it multivalent for the convenience of the parents AND the comfort of your child. Adrian Wong : Vivian Lum : Your baby's immune system is more than developed to handle the antigen load. Even if you inject all 11 vaccines in one go, it will only "take up" 0.1% of your baby's immune system. Source - Addressing Parents? Concerns: Do Multiple Vaccines Overwhelm or Weaken the Infant?s Immune System? Adrian Wong : Grace Ng : There is NO controversy over the MMR vaccine. All this concern is based on a SINGLE discredited study that has been proven to be manipulated. In fact, the person who did it, Andrew Wakefield, was proven to have several ulterior motives to do so - making money off a potential lawsuit, peddling his own vaccines to replace the MMR vaccine, etc. Thousands of studies have been conducted and not a single one has shown any relation between the MMR vaccine and autism. And as I have posted earlier - it is NOT possible for the MMR vaccine to cause autism when autism can be detected 6-8 months BEFORE it is administered! Adrian Wong : Eric Goh and Teri Liew : Please note that Dr. Chan is NOT a doctor. He is a homeopath. Also note that chelation therapy is dangerous. It can kill. It has killed at least one autistic kid to my recollection. Also, a recent study has shown that it can cause cognitive and emotional problems in the patients. Source - Stokstad E (2008). "Stalled Trial for Autism Highlights Dilemma of Alternative Treatments". Science 321 Teri Liew : Adrian, to u mmr may not cause autism. To the many parents who saw their kids regress after mmr, it is very real. I don't tell parents NOT to vaccinate because I can't. I just merely suggest that parents educate before u vaccinate. If mmr don't cause harm or autism, can you explain why courts in US, UK, Japan n Italy have compensated a large amount to vaccine injured kids? Teri Liew : Oh btw, mmr is not the only vax that.causes autism. Remember babies get jabbed from few hours.of.life earthside. Teri Liew : As for.schedule, different countries.have different vaccine schedule. N u need to.keep.getting boosters after.boosters after boosters after boosters after boosters. Don't believe me? Lol go research more.
Adrian Wong : Teri Liew : It's not about my opinion. This is the scientific AND logical conclusion after thousands of studies. I can tell you that some parents aren't really observant about how their autistic kids behave. Many may have detected certain signs but refuse to acknowledge it. Also, autism is often detected only about 1 year of age because that's when most kids are expected to be able to babble. Coincidentally, that's when the MMR vaccine is often administered. But that doesn't mean there's causality, because as I pointed out, autism CAN be detected much earlier. Just because you didn't detect it doesn't mean it wasn't there in the first place. Vaccine compensation by the courts? Sure, read here -> http://forums.techarp.com/adrian-wong/27616-courts-quietly-confirm-mmr-vaccine-causes-autism.html Adrian Wong : Teri Liew : So are you positing now that the Hepatitis B vaccine causes autism? Alia Kearney : Ok so obviously no matter what I say, you are going to try and debunk it with your good friend google right? Whatever, I don't need to prove to you my reasons for non-vaccination, nor do I want your approval. And I totally don't appreciate you condemning my 'research' skills. I have been doing my research, I'm just reading the other articles that show BOTH sides while you are only reading one side. And if you say you aren't, then you are lying because you are still reading with your biased eyes. I don't want to waste any more time arguing with you, because you just won't open yourself to the idea that there is another side to it. Just be grateful that you and yours have not experienced any sort of adverse effects to vaccines. And I thank you for your input as other people need to be aware of the points that argue pro-vaccines. Goodbye Adrian Wong : Alia Kearney : I'm not going to try to debunk what you say. All of your points have all been exhaustively debunked. You are not the first anti-vaxxer to expound them. I'm just informing you of the facts. No, you do not need to tell us your reasons for not vaccinating your children. But if you make claims, please back them up with facts. If you do not, then you are misleading other people. I didn't condemn your research skills. If I did, please quote me. I merely pointed out the factual and logical errors in your claims. Again, if you feel that I'm wrong, you are free to dispute them with evidence. Of course, I'm biased. I'm biased towards evidence. I dislike anecdotal accounts because by the time it gets around the neighbourhood, a tiny tree snake becomes an anaconda, if you catch my drift... Sorry but it looks like you are the one who does not have the open mind. You have refused to consider even the logical questions I posed to you. Why? Didn't you say you consider both sides of the story? Eric Goh : adrian wong you seem to have made up your mind on vaccines and is actively promoting and defending its use. I have a different opinion. BTW I have heard all your arguments before vaccine advocates. I do not want to debate the issue here. its rather pointless. as a parent I urge all parent to do their own research and weigh the pros and cons themselves. only YOU should decide what is best for YOUR child, dont just listen to any particular party, includong myself. nuff said Maggie Foo : Keep cool....is debatable topic....but we cannot denied there are lots of things modern medicine are not able to explain lots of sickness. Just like my son conditions. ..God bless he is recovering well. Doctors are not able to diagnosed him. Te top doctors n prof in Asia n in one of te best hospital in te world (quoted by my paed) ...There are lots questions. Even to them... they just try n error ...at least they are honest to tell...no diagnosis. So guys...let te maker answers your questions. God bless. Adrian Wong : Eric Goh : Actually, no. Hypothetically, if tomorrow, a study conclusively shows that the Hep B vaccine causes cancer, then you will see me spread the news of that too. I don't make my mind over anything. I go with the evidence. Similarly, so do many scientists. And they have already proven that with transfat. Once they discovered that transfat was bad, did they cover it up? Did the food industry bribe scientists to lie? No, they immediately advocated that transfat be removed from the diet. The industry followed. The same will happen if any vaccine is found to be dangerous. Also, I tagged you because Teri Liew has just advocated chelation therapy by a homeopathy practitioner. Not only is it dangerous, it's throwing money down the drain. The actual chelation therapy isn't expensive. But since no doctor worth his salt will do it for no therapeutic reason, quacks like this Chan are scamming parents through chelation therapy. Khoo Sin Dee : Patrick Ong, sorry that i dont hv time to go through the threads, but this is the group that will certainly provide you with more info: Our Healthy Unvaccinated Babies: www.facebook.com/groups/OHUBMalaysia/ I myself also dont vaccine my kids from MMR onwards. I am not the expert to argue about the facts, but i am a fans of John Robbins, Dr Lei Jiu Nan 雷久南博士 and am inspired by Waldorf education, so saying no to vaccine came naturally to me. hope this helps. Eric Goh : adrian wong dont get me wrong. I m not upset with anyone. you r entitled to your opinions just like everyone else. i just cannot agree with your opinions thats all. this is based on facts as well. I do not want to debate the issue because I believe this is not d right forum, i have seen and heard all the points before and I really dun have the time. I have met plenty of quacks before and some of them are medical doctors. my advice to all parents is still d same, do your own research and make up your own mind Patrick Ong : U have made your points here. Tq. But Try not to impose your views on others. btw are you a medical doctor? Adrian Wong : Eric Goh : If you disagree, please do not be afraid to speak out. I would like to see those facts that you speak of. Patrick Ong asked about this, so I don't see why it's the wrong forum to discuss this issue. Patrick, I'm not here to impose my views, but to point out the overwhelming evidence (with source). Even if you choose to ignore the evidence, then consider the logical problems with what the anti-vaxxers are claiming. I may come across very strongly but that's because I'm a parent, and I have seen and know people who were not vaccinated and have suffered consequences from those diseases that vaccines protect our kids from. Yes, I'm a medical doctor, but that's not important. Judge the facts solely on their validity, not the person who delivered them.
Irene Wong : So, did you inject your baby 11 vaccines at the same time? Irene Wong : Do vaccines guarantee that the person will not contract the disease that he has been vaccinated against? Irene Wong : In what circumstances that an unvaccinated person will contract a disease? Teri Liew : Adrian, he may be a quack to you but he has.cured.kids damaged by vaccines. Btw, if u haven't noticed many many many ppl do.die under the hands of allopathic doctors. What's d appropriate term they use...negligence? Malpractice? Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : Obviously, not. I follow the vaccination schedule. The point is the number of antigens is far lower today than it was decades ago, despite the increase in the number of vaccinations. That depends on the vaccine, doesn't it? Like I pointed out, no influenza vaccine can guarantee protection against the seasonal influenza strains. But in many diseases, vaccines can offer protection to your child from the disease if you follow protocol. Under what circumstances will an unvaccinated person contract a disease? Well that depends on his/her exposure to the disease, right? There's no accounting from where you might get exposed to diseases. But generally, your risk runs higher where people congregate - schools, kindergartens, parks, hospitals, places of worship, etc. Irene Wong : Well, than it is not worthy to mention about 11 vaccines at one go because u have not done that yourself. What kind of protocol to follow? How about pneumococcal vaccine? 90+ strains out there. Does it mean to say that if I get myself vaccinated I got guaranteed protection from all the strains?? How about a vaccinated person goes to places where people congregate? Adrian Wong : Teri Liew : Sorry but I find that extremely hard to believe. If he has actually cure autism, then he would be world famous because if you check - there is NO CURE for autism. Of course, Teri, people die even if real doctors (the term allopathy is only used by homeopaths..) treat them. They are not gods. They are doctors. The difference between actual medicine and homeopathy is thus - actual medicine is based on science. That means all treatments must be proven to be efficacious and repeatable. All drugs that are approved are not only proven to have a consistent, repeatable effect but also a known list of side effects. What this mean is that we don't just make things up. Not all treatments work for all patients and we know that and acknowledge that. If it doesn't work, we say it doesn't work. When it comes to homeopathy - there is no evidence of any effect. Consider the fundamentals - you dilute the active ingredient millions of times to the point that in a dose, there is often not even a single molecule of the active ingredient, so what you are really drinking is water or alcohol. Even if you don't know how homeopathy "works", consider that there is NO STUDY in the world that shows that homeopathy has any discernible effect on the patient. Since you insinuate that doctors often commit malpractice, well, at least you can sue doctors for malpractice. Can you sue a homeopath for malpractice? Are they even licensed? Dallas Wong : Adrian Wong, could some of those scientific studies you rely on for information been rigged to favor pharma companies? Teri Liew : Well obviously u have not.given homeopathy a try. All I.can say is.. your loss .. Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : By your logic, I suppose then teachers should not bother teaching our kids anything until they have actually tried everything mentioned in the books? I'm sure you have already done your research and know that the pneumococcal vaccine only protects against certain serotypes. I've already pointed out if the vaccine is only designed to protect against certain variants, then the protection is only for those variants. If you want to prove that vaccines are not efficacious, it's very simple. Put yourself (not vaccinated) and a vaccinated volunteer in an enclosed room. Swab both your throats with a sample of pathogenic Strep. pneumonia. Then wait and see. If you are right, then both of you should get sick. If science is right, only you will get sick. A vaccinated person has little to no concern if he/she comes into contact with an infected person because the vaccination has already conferred protection. It's like the protection you get after suffering from a case of the chicken pox. After you are cured of your first infection, you will not get sick from chicken pox even if you mix with those who are contagious. Same concept. Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : Sure. But as I pointed out - thousands of independent studies have been done on this issue. With the SOLE EXCEPTION of Andrew Wakefield's study, no other study has found that any vaccine causes autism. What is the possibility of pharmaceutical companies buying ALL of those research teams? What is the possibility that all of those scientists are so greedy that everyone of them is willing to sell out the health of their children (many are parents too) just to make an extra buck? And frankly - it is really in the pharmaceutical industry's interests NOT to make more vaccines. Vaccines are administered once or at most 3-4 times a lifetime. Medication for diseases like diabetes, hypertension, hypercholesterolemia, etc. are taken EVERY DAY. Even antibiotics are taken quite often. Why would they want to invent new vaccines if those vaccines would cut into their profits from selling you antibiotics and antiviral drugs? Every new vaccine they make cuts into the sales of their medicine because the protection they confer is usually lifelong. If I were in charge of a pharmaceutical company and I'm only interested in making as much money as possible, I wouldn't bother with vaccines. They are bad for business.
Irene Wong : So, by your logic, you can claim that having 11 vaccines at one go is safe and it's okay even you have not tested the safety of having them at one go? About pneumo, yes, I just wanted a confirmation that vaccines only protect certain strains and not all strains, and also the mutated strains. Well, if you want to prove that vaccine is effective, why don't you swap your throat with a sample of pathogenic strep pneumonia instead? Adrian Wong : Teri Liew : All of us have - when we drink water. Our water actually contains thousands of times more active ingredients than homeopathic potions. Dallas Wong : "thousands of independent studies have been done on this issue" Thousands? Independent? Can you please quote just a few? I don't even trust a doctor when I'm face to face with them, so obviously, I'm not gonna trust one over Facebook so if you can quote a few with links, that'll be nice. Based on what I know, majority of the studies are now funded one way or another by pharma companies or CDC. That's hardly independent to me. Have you heard of Dr. Vijendra Singh. Besides Dr. Wakefield, here's another doctor who found a link between the mmr and autism when you said it was ONLY Dr. Wakefield. New evidence 'shows MMR link to autism' | Mail Online "What is the possibility of pharmaceutical companies buying ALL of those research teams?" Have you read this? Lies, Damned Lies, and Medical Science Lies, Damned Lies, and Medical Science - David H. Freedman - The Atlantic Why Most Published Research Findings Are False PLOS Medicine: Why Most Published Research Findings Are False Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : I suggest you read what I wrote properly. It is not my logic. It is the consensus of this article - Addressing Parents? Concerns: Do Multiple Vaccines Overwhelm or Weaken the Infant?s Immune System? that is based on actual research. I pointed out that the baby's immune system is more than capable of handling the small antigen load that is present in current vaccines. Even if you hypothetically inject all 11 vaccines, the antigen load would only occupy just 0.1% of the baby's immune system capacity. I suggest you read the article FIRST - Addressing Parents? Concerns: Do Multiple Vaccines Overwhelm or Weaken the Infant?s Immune System? Sorry but it isn't me who wants to prove the efficacy of the pneumococcal vaccine. It is YOU who wants to disprove it. It was YOU who brought up the pneumococcal vaccine. So go on ahead and prove it. Teri Liew : Oh wow. Dang.. those allopathic turned homeopath doctors that r in Malaysia should seriously come to u for counselling. I mean it is just wrong to.prescribe just water that can heal coughs, flu fever etc which drugs can't. Irene Wong : Hmmm... Okay, I apologise, it was not your logic, but having quoting from an article, isn't that equals to you agreeing that yeah, it is okay to have them at one go? How do you know that a baby is capable? Is every baby the same? And if you have read my sentences calmly, yes, it was me who brought up the pneumo issue, and said I wanted a confirmation of vaccines not protecting all strains. In your reply, you are sure that vaccine is effective, surely, if you as a medical doctor puts forward a challenge like that, I am guessing you have tried that before? Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : Quote you a few, sure... You can look up the rest online. It's very simple, now that we have Google. - MMS: Error There was no association between the age at the time of vaccination, the time since vaccination, or the date of vaccination and the development of autistic disorder. - Measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and bowel problems or developmental regression in children with autism: population study | BMJ No significant difference was found in rates of bowel problems or regression in children who received the MMR vaccine before their parents became concerned about their development (where MMR might have caused or triggered the autism with regression or bowel problem), compared with those who received it only after such concern and those who had not received the MMR vaccine. - http://www.sciencedirect.com/.../pii/S0140673699012398 Our analyses do not support a causal association between MMR vaccine and autism. - http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/.../full The significance of this finding is that MMR vaccination is most unlikely to be a main cause of ASD, that it cannot explain the rise over time in the incidence of ASD, and that withdrawal of MMR in countries where it is still being used cannot be expected to lead to a reduction in the incidence of ASD. - Mumps, measles, and rubella vaccine and the incidence of autism recorded by general practitioners: a time trend analysis | BMJ Because the incidence of autism among 2 to 5 year olds increased markedly among boys born in each year separately from 1988 to 1993 while MMR vaccine coverage was over 95% for successive annual birth cohorts, the data provide evidence that no correlation exists between the prevalence of MMR vaccination and the rapid increase in the risk of autism over time. -------- But hey, if you don't trust the scientific mumbo-jumbo, at least trust your own common sense and logic. 1. How can the MMR vaccine cause autism if autism was already present months before it is administered? 2. How can vaccines be the cause of autism if the prevalence of autism remained the same even in the non-vaccinated population? 3. Even when one of the "causes" (thiomersal) of autism was removed from the vaccine, or the vaccines were reformulated or manufactured using a different process, the rate of autism remained. So how can the vaccine or any of their suspected components (thiomersal) be the cause? 4. Why do autistic kids present with abnormalities in their genes? Vaccines cannot change our genetic information. Irene Wong : Hey Adrian Wong, talking about genetics, isn't allergies part of our genetic's makeup? Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : No need to apologize for trolling. This isn't the first time I've dealt with anti-vaxxers. I agree with their assessment but no one is advocating that a baby should receive all 11 injections at once. There are other considerations that have nothing to do with the antigen load. Their analysis is merely to convey to parents that the antigen load is FAR LOWER than it was in the past -> from 3000+ antigens to less than 130 antigens. Yes, and didn't I reply you on the that? As I pointed out, there are no guarantees. There are always exceptions. But does that mean that vaccines should be rejected because they cannot guarantee 100% protection? Can any car manufacturer guarantee that you will survive an accident in their car without injury? Does that lack of guarantee means you won't drive a car? Can any university guarantee that your degree will earn you a good job? If not, are you going to skip university? In life, we don't get guarantees. We make the best choices we can and deal with it. If you don't want to get vaccinated, that's fine - you are an adult, and you are free to make your own choices even if they are detrimental to yourself. But don't slam the protection that vaccines offer. Even if it's just 60-70%, that's 60-70% better than zero protection.
Irene Wong : From your earlier reply, you said " but in many diseases, vaccines can guarantee you that your child will not be infected by the disease if you follow protocol'. Well, I have dealt with a lot of egoistic medical professionals who always seem to be unsteady in their answers. Irene Wong : And medical professionals like to label those who question about vaccines the 'angry anti vaxers'. Dallas Wong : Wow, you actually gave one (first one too) with Poul Thorsen's involvement... I would thought after someone already mentioned him in earlier comments, you wouldn't but you actually did. You do know Poul Thorsen is an enormous scumbag, right? He stole CDC research money and is now a wanted fugitive. (https://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/fugitives/profiles.asp) And the studies that he was involved in are now being accused that they could be fabricated. 2003 Danish Study on Mercury Fabricated? Home My own common sense and logic tells me that if doctors and pharma companies claim that vaccines are safe but don't take responsibility when there is AEFI or deaths, then I wouldn't trust that claim. In the past, many of these pharma companies has gotten away with just a slap on the wrist: Merck - Vioxx, Bayer - HIV contaminated meds...etc. And really, it's not just autism that parents are worried about. There are just so many...and recently, after so long...the UK government has just admitted that the swine flue vaccine can cause narcolepsy. If you followed up on this from before, you can see that they were trying hard not to associated this vaccine with narcolepsy: BBC News - Way opened for Pandemrix swine flu jab compensation "And frankly - it is really in the pharmaceutical industry's interests NOT to make more vaccines." Hmmm...but they're now making vaccines so that you can eat fast food and not get fat, that you will not be addicted to alcohol or cocaine. Irene Wong : Oh, btw, I have my reservations with anything that comes with the name Paul A Offit. Infants can take up to 10000 vaccines? C'mon! Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : Yeah, but there are always exceptions to the rule. If a child has compromised immunity, will the vaccine work? If the vaccine isn't given enough time in advanced to develop sufficient antibodies, how effective is it? Ego is irrelevant. As I pointed out before, who I am is irrelevant. The facts are what matters. Don't waste your time with ad hominem attacks on me. Just lay your facts for everyone to see. No, I called you an anti-vaxxer because you are so adamant to prove that vaccines don't work. Well, I'm here not to prove that they work (they do) but to point out that vaccines DO NOT cause autism. So try keeping to the topic. Irene Wong : If by calling me an anti vaxer is relevant, then yes, you can call me an anti vaxer. To keep to the topic, you said vaccines do not change our genetics makeup. My question is, isn't allergies part of our genetics makeup? Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : Don't trust Poul even though he is only a minor researcher for that paper? No worries. Dump the whole thing. There are hundreds more to base our opinions on. See if you can find who else has some kind of skeleton for you to dig up. Don't worry about his papers. If they are suspected of being fabricated, they will be investigated and new studies done to verify their results. How did you think they caught Andrew Wakefield? Really? Doctors and pharmaceutical companies do not take responsibility for any fault they cause? Heard of the vaccine court (Office of Special Masters of the U.S. Court of Federal Claims)? Now, let's not go into the realm of conspiracy theories. Stick to the topic. Do vaccines cause autism or not? Yes or no? Sure, there are side effects. Everything has side effects. We have to balance the benefits against the risks. 20 children out of a million developing narcolepsy? It's a small price to pay if you are facing an impending epidemic or pandemic of swine flu. Look up how many people have been killed by swine flu. But yet again, it is irrelevant to the question of whether vaccines cause autism. Are you positing that because swine flu has caused narcolepsy in 0.0018% of those who took it, it therefore suggests that vaccines cause autism? Dallas Wong : How do you think they caught Dr. Wakefield? This may shed some light... Brian Deer and The GMC, Selective Hearing. BMJ Journalist - YouTube "Heard of the vaccine court (Office of Special Masters of the U.S. Court of Federal Claims)?" Yes, I have...over 2.5 billion US dollars paid to vaccine injuries and deaths (only in the USA) so far, and these money did not come from doctors or big pharma. They come from add on taxes on the vaccines paid by vaccine receivers. So what's your point? How are doctors and pharma responsible when it's the receivers who are paying for it? Yes, personally, I believe vaccine cause autism, but unfortunately, the way is such that you have to wait for "evidence" and the only evidence accepted are the so called scientific studies, which may be pharma funded, researched by doctors on pharma pay rolls, ghost written, rigged, manipulated, fabricated, placebos are not real placebos but contain aluminum or other vaccine adjuvants...etc. Tell me, were deaths in infectious disease already on the decline before mass vaccination started? Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : No, that is not the topic. But since you asked - allergies have a genetic basis but that is not the only reason why we develop allergies.
Irene Wong : since allergies have a genetic basis, ( I am thinking about nurses advising parents to let their child eat an egg to see whether they have allergic reaction to eggs), how sure are you by saying that vaccines do not cause autism when MMR with mumps and measles cultured in chick embryo causes allergic reaction to egg, and rubella in human diploid cells? ( please cast aside your ego whether it is relevant or not, because you have been too fast to judge that my question is off topic, thank you) Irene Wong : If allergies to eggs might be caused by the chick embryo's protein, doesn't human diploid cells carry the aborted fetus' DNA? Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : Brian Deer is a hero but even he is just the initiator. To bring a case against Wakefield, one must have evidence. Why do you think the GMC took so long to investigate? They had to go through his work and run studies to check his results and so on. What's my point? The point is there are legal avenues for those who were affected by any side effect of a vaccine. That is not available to people who get harmed by alternative medicine, including homeopathy. And these legal judgements are not necessarily based on the science. It's often cheaper to compensate those who are affected than argue over whether the injury was caused by the vaccine or something else -> http://forums.techarp.com/adrian-wong/27616-courts-quietly-confirm-mmr-vaccine-causes-autism.html Well, I think it's pretty evident you believe that vaccines cause autism. What's worse - you think it's all one big conspiracy to "infect" our kids with autism. To what purpose? Scientific studies are believed not because they are perfect, but because they must be verified and repeated. Scientists generally talk in likelihood, not certainty, because the more studies are done, the more certain they are of a fact. The opposite is true when it comes to delusions. Delusions are impervious to criticism. It's always someone else's fault - the doctor must be ignorant but too egoistic to admit it, the scientist must have been bribed, the politicians are covering up for Big Pharma, etc. I think you will be impressed with the statistics - Okay, maybe not... Dallas Wong : You still dont get it do you? Compensation by the vaccine court is not paid by doctors/big pharma, which means they can claim that vaccines are safe all they like but take no responsibility for their claim and just let the vaccine court handle everything. Yep, doctors always like to bring these topics up in a vaccine discussion..."Wakefield" and "conspiracy theory". It does make the anti-vaccine argument seem a little weaker when one is a "discredited doctor" and the other conspiracy theory quackery. You do remember that once, scientific studies showed that cigarettes were safe and doctors recommended them, and those who claimed that they were not safe were conspiracy theorist. Dallas Wong : I asked for mortality, you gave me morbidity? Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : Seriously, stick to your points. If you want to call me names, just do it. Don't waste time trying to be coy about your insults. 1. The MMR vaccine is given at 12-15 months of age. Autism can now be detected as early as 4-6 months of age. See the timeline problem? 2. If you are suggesting that it is the allergy to the egg protein that causes autism, then eating an egg would cause autism in those who have egg allergy. 3. Yes, the human diploid cells would contain DNA. Most of it would have been filtered out, but some proteins or DNA may be present. But what has that got to do with autism, pray tell? Until now, I fail to see how your question about allergy having a genetic basis is relevant to the question of whether vaccines cause autism. Please proceed. Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : I get it. I just don't give a shit frankly, because it is irrelevant to the question - Do vaccines cause autism? How does the source of payment in vaccine trials determine whether vaccines cause autism or not? Do explain. No, all these conspiracy theories make your arguments MUCH weaker. Which is why I can never understand why those who are anti-vaccination cannot just stick to the facts, instead of claiming some kind of conspiracy - "the only evidence accepted are the so called scientific studies, which may be pharma funded, researched by doctors on pharma pay rolls, ghost written, rigged, manipulated, fabricated, placebos are not real placebos but contain aluminum or other vaccine adjuvants...etc." Wow.. you show me an advertisement which quotes a SINGLE doctor as evidence that doctors recommended smoking? Please quote me a few examples of studies that showed that cigarettes were safe. Mortality is part of morbidity. Why would you want mortality alone when morbidity is more important? For example, with medical intervention, people may not die from polio but they can still end up crippled. Adrian Wong : BTW, Dallas, this should be an interesting read for you with regards to the irrelevant point about doctors recommending cigarettes -http://www.healio.com/hematology-oncology/news/print/hematology-oncology/%7B241d62a7-fe6e-4c5b-9fed-a33cc6e4bd7c%7D/cigarettes-were-once-physician-tested-approved
Dallas Wong : Well, according to Yahoo news, the vaccine market will be worth 84 billion US dollars by 2022. (Vaccine Market Worth $84.44 Billion by 2022 - Yahoo Finance) I would think that's enough reason why they're protecting it. Dr. Morris Fishbein of the AMA was one such doctor promoting cigarettes. Of course, in most of mainstream media, you will find that part "missing" in his history. Er...you claim that my statement of "the only evidence accepted are the so called scientific studies, which may be pharma funded, researched by doctors on pharma pay rolls, ghost written, rigged, manipulated, fabricated, placebos are not real placebos but contain aluminum or other vaccine adjuvants...etc." is a conspiracy theory? Well, here are some examples for you, dear doctor. One example of each but if you need more, just ask and I shall post. -------------------- [ Pharma funded trials ]: “According to an analysis of drug trials published Monday, studies were much more likely to be positive -- that is, showing the drug worked -- in trials that were funded by the pharmaceutical industry.” “Researchers reviewed 546 drug trials and found that industry-funded trials reported positive outcomes 85% of the time compared with 50% of the time for government-funded trials and 72% of the time for trials funded by nonprofits or non-federal organizations.” (Source: Drug studies funded by industry are more likely to yield good news - Drug studies funded by industry are more likely to yield good news - Los Angeles Times) -------------------- [ Researchers with pharma ties ]: “Harvard Medical School doctors who helped pioneer the use of psychiatric drugs in children violated U.S. government and school rules by failing to properly disclose at least $3.2 million from drugmakers led by Johnson & Johnson and Eli Lilly & Co...” “Obviously, if a researcher is taking money from a drug company while also receiving federal dollars to research that company's product, then there is a conflict of interest” (Source: Harvard Doctors Failed to Disclose Fees, Senator Says - Harvard Doctors Failed to Disclose Fees, Senator Says (Update2) - Bloomberg) -------------------- [ Hidden Negative Data ]: “The company admitted illegally marketing the popular antidepressants Paxil and Wellbutrin and also withholding the data on the health risks of its best-selling diabetes drug, Avandia.” “For seven years Glaxo failed to report data showing drug Avandia increased the risk of heart attack by as much as 40 per cent. ... In fact, a clinical trial had found that the drug made adolecents more likely to attempt suicide.” (Source: GlaxoSmithKline fraud case: Does crime pay? - GlaxoSmithKline fraud case: Does crime pay? - Inside Story Americas - Al Jazeera English) -------------------- [ Overstating Effectiveness ]: “...the unsealing of a whistleblower suit against Merck, filed back in 2010 by two former employees accusing the drugmaker of overstating the effectiveness of its mumps, measles, and rubella vaccine.” “Specifically, the suit claims Merck manipulated the results of clinical trials beginning in the late 1990s so as to be able to report that the combined mumps vaccine, known as MMR-II (a revised version of the 1971 MMR shot containing a different strain of the rubella virus), is 95 percent effective, in an effort to maintain its exclusive license to manufacture it.” (Source: Merck Whistleblower Suit A Boon to Vaccine Foes Even As It Stresses Importance of Vaccines - Merck Whistleblower Suit A Boon to Vaccine Foes Even As It Stresses Importance of Vaccines - Forbes) -------------------- [ Ghostwriting ]: “DRUG company Merck had a cardiologist sign his name to a medical journal article it wrote claiming there was no evidence of any heart risk attached to its drug Vioxx, court documents allegedly show.” (Source: Merck accused of 'ghost writing' medical article - Merck accused of 'ghost writing' medical article) -------------------- [ No evidence of harm? Because no studies funded ]: “ONE of Australia's most senior cancer specialists has accused pharmaceutical companies of manipulating some clinical trials of medicines for commercial reasons, including deliberately delaying the release of negative findings and being reluctant to fund research into the toxicity of their drugs.” “Four instances when Professor Clarke wanted to test the toxicity of drugs — to determine the side-effects for different patients — but the drug companies refused to fund the research. "These were commercial decisions; they wanted to maximise the image of their drug."” (Source: Drug companies 'manipulating trials' - Drug companies 'manipulating trials' - Health And Fitness - smh.com.au) -------------------- [ Controlling Placebo ]: “It is important to note that during clinical trials of Gardasil more than 90% of the 'placebo' subjects received an aluminum-containing placebo. This obscures the true rate of adverse experiences because aluminum is toxic. Using the toxic placebo during trials makes Gardasil appear to be safer than it really is.” (Source: Vaccine - Vaccines) -------------------- [ Invented/Fake Studies ]: “U.S. Attorney Carmen M. Ortiz accused Reuben of accepting a $75,000 grant from Pfizer to research the effectiveness of pain medication Celebrex for a 2005 study in which no patients were actually enrolled.” “Last March, Reuben was dismissed from his position at Baystate Medical Center after an audit revealed he had been inventing data for as many as 13 years.” (Source: Former Pfizer representative charged with health care fraud - The Day - Former Pfizer representative charged with health care fraud | News from southeastern Connecticut) -------------------- Ahhh, I see, you're one of those that don't want readers to know that deaths from infectious diseases were already on the decline before mass vaccination has started? Yes, they could get crippled from polio but what is really helping the decrease of polio? Vaccines or improvements in hygiene and sanitation? "The gastrointestinal damage caused by contaminated water could also explain why some vaccines fail to work in children in developing countries" (Extra Food Means Nothing to Stunted Kids With Bad Water: Health - Businessweek) Girl vaccinated nine times contracts polio (Girl vaccinated nine times contracts polio - DAWN.COM) Let's put it this way, Adrian. You can go on relying on your "trusted" sources and we'll rely on ours. You do know that, besides Wakefield, there are plenty of other doctors now questioning the safety and efficacy of vaccines.
Irene Wong : Adrian Wong I don't know why you are being so emotional, I did not and is not planning to call you any names, certainly not insulting you. No, I am not suggesting that egg protein causes autism, I said that since egg protein causes egg allergies, with DNA of aborted fetus being present, you are telling me that it does not cause any changes in our genetics, even though you have just injected another person's DNA into your body? Irene Wong : Federal vaccine court awards millions to two vaccine-injured kids with autism - Miami healthy living | Examiner.com Patrick Ong : From d link tht Irene Wong posted, I'm sure d court do have d some evidence to award damages to d victims. Meaning there is a link between vaccines and autism. So we cannot rule out the possibility that vaccines are harmful and do make our children sick. And as parents we all have to decide if we shud vaccinate or Not to vaccinate or at least to delay it. Its scares d hell out of every parent bcos like you said, there is no cure for autism? Or maybe there is...I don't know... Grace Ng : Thank you for the insights from both side. Leona Mei Ling Lim : Do scientists even know what science is? By saying something isn't true until proven by science is too funny on many levels. Obviously there are way a lot of things that we all know as truth that cannot be proven by science or anything. That is called miracle, that is called faith, that is called supernatural. Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : That's a projection, of course. And the pharmaceutical industry itself is expected to be worth more than 1.1 TRILLION US dollars by 2014. In fact, that's quite conservative because in 2011, the pharmaceutical industry topped $954 BILLION dollars. So even if we compare the vaccine industry in 2022 with the pharmaceutical industry today, the vaccine industry of the future accounts for just 8.8% of the pharmaceutical industry TODAY. If we compare the projected vaccine industry in 2022 with the projected pharmaceutical industry in 2014, the vaccine industry would only account for 7.6% of the pharmaceutical industry. Either way, the vaccine industry is very small portion of the pharmaceutical industry. Even if they lose all 84 billion dollars of it in 2014, the pharmaceutical industry will still be worth more than a TRILLION dollars. ----- Yes, but do quote me the actual studies that you claimed was used to prove that cigarettes were healthy? Did you read the link I posted about the history of using doctors to advertise cigarettes? Here it is again, just in case - Cigarettes were once ‘physician’ tested, approved | HemOnc Today Those are conspiracy theories because you assume there is more to them than was already explained. 1. Pharma-funded studies. If a drug is developed by a pharmaceutical company, the clinical studies are often funded by them, because they want to get the drug approved by the US FDA. Why should taxpayers pay for the studies if the pharmaceutical company benefits from it? Of course, their studies will have a tendency to be more positive. Studies are not cheap, so pharmaceutical companies will pick the drugs they think has the best chance of succeeding. The study results are not just accepted blindly. They are peer-reviewed and if necessary, additional studies are performed to confirm the results before approval is granted. Even after approval is granted, these drugs continued to be studied. There have been many cases where drugs have been withdrawn from the market after they were proven to have side effects that were not detected during clinical trials. So, there is nothing wrong with pharma-funded studies, especially when the pharmaceutical industry wants to benefit from the sale of their drug. 2. Researchers with pharma ties. Now, there are two sides to this. If a researcher is funded by a pharmaceutical company to do a study on drug X which they make, that's nothing wrong. But if a researcher employed by the US FDA or any other regulatory body or a university receives payment from the same pharmaceutical company while doing independent research on drug X, then it's a clear case of conflict of interest. There are laws to prevent this, and as you can see, such researchers do get caught. How many cases can you find? Compare that to the number of drug researchers. 3. Hiding negative data. This is common in any industry, which is why drug studies are carried out even AFTER a drug is approved. This is also why some drugs get withdrawn and their manufacturer fined. It doesn't mean that everyone does it for every drug. The link you provided proves that there is no conspiracy. If there's a conspiracy, why would GSK get penalized? 4. Overstating effectiveness. This is the same as no. 3. Again, they get found out eventually. If there's a conspiracy - would they get penalized? 5. Ghostwriting. This is common in all industries. Heck, a large portion of Yelp reviews are said to be ghostwritten. There are many autobiographies that are actually ghostwritten too. But this isn't ethical, of course, which is why they are being censured. If there's a conspiracy to help the pharmaceutical companies - would they get caught, much less censured and the truth exposed? 6. No evidence of harm? Because no studies funded. Err... if you go to Toyota and ask them to fund a study to prove that their cars have an automatic acceleration problem, do you think they will agree? That's not called manipulating a study. That is called protecting your product. Researchers have access to funds from research bodies that are either NGOs, or government bodies. They should apply from those bodies if they want to independently investigate a drug. In fact, asking a drug company to fund an independent study of their own drug is a conflict of interest -> see no. 2. If the drug company finances it, you would probably point it out as an example of a drug company trying to influence research... 7. Aluminium in placebo. There's a very good reason why they used an aluminium compound in the placebo of the Gardasil vaccine. That's because it's the same adjuvant used in the real vaccine. If they don't use it, then they cannot evaluate whether any side effect is due to the vaccine itself, or its adjuvant. So where's the conspiracy? BTW, calling aluminium toxic is nothing but a red herring. EVERY substance in the world is toxic. It all depends on the dose. The adjuvant is safe, and the placebo contained the same adjuvant to properly evaluate the safety of the vaccine itself. 8. Invented / Fake Studies How is this a conspiracy? It's a crime, alright. Did Pfizer knowingly paid Reuben of creating a fictitious report? Or did they pay him to do research and he just made it up? ---------- Of course, mortality has been on the decline before the invention of the vaccine. It has been on the decline since the advent of modern medicine - the germ theory of disease, aseptic procedures, antibiotics were invented. Does it mean that vaccines did not FURTHER reduce the mortality rate? Does it mean that vaccines did not have any effect? Does it mean that vaccines cause autism? Obviously NOT. Better sanitation and hygiene, of course, play a big part in reducing the incidence of polio but that doesn't mean you are safe if you keep clean. Franklin D. Roosevelt was paralyzed by polio. If he can't even avoid getting polio, what makes you think we all can? Of course. That much is obvious. There's no need to ask for facts because to you - it is simply impossible for your belief to be wrong. No number of facts or research can persuade you. I only replied to inform other people who are reading this thread. They are free to evaluate our points and judge for themselves.
Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : I don't think I'm being emotional at all. After all, did I make any remarks about you? But you certainly seem to be quite agitated. Are you suggesting that injecting someone's DNA into our body will change our DNA? Adrian Wong : Patrick Ong : Courts do not necessarily rule by science but by legal arguments -> http://forums.techarp.com/adrian-wong/27616-courts-quietly-confirm-mmr-vaccine-causes-autism.html Take for example, you and a friend open a company and become guarantors for a loan. Business goes bad and your friend absconds overseas. Now the bank comes to collect its debts and you are forced to pay for ALL of the company's debts even though logically, your partner should be responsible for half. What's worse is that if you cannot just pay half the debt. You have to pay it all. And if you pay it all, your friend is cleared of his debt too. Is it right? Is it fair? Obviously not, but it's the law. Of course, autism scares the hell out of every parent, because it's a lifelong issue. But consider what else you are throwing away if you reject vaccines - protection against hepatitis B, measles, mumps, rubella, polio, tetanus, pertussis, etc. All these diseases can also cause lifelong damage to your children and may even kill them. So you have to weigh the risks of getting those common diseases versus the frankly impossibility of getting autism through vaccine. Even if you don't want to know about the science, just consider these facts : 1. Autism can be detected as early as 4 months of age. The MMR vaccine is only given at 12-15 months of age. 2. The prevalence of autism in the unvaccinated community is the SAME as the prevalence in the vaccinated community. 3. Autism appears to run in families, whether they are vaccinated or not. Adrian Wong : Leona Mei Ling Lim : If they don't, then they shouldn't be called scientists. No one actually said that nothing is true until it is proven by science. If you actually thought I said that, please do quote me. All you need to prove that something is true is evidence. Do you have evidence that vaccines cause autism? Then again, faith is belief in the absence of evidence... Dallas Wong : Adrian, whether it's 7.6% or 1% of the pharma industry, it's still a lot of money. And some people will protect that source of income, no matter what. You misquoted me, I hope not on purpose. I never said cigarettes were healthy. Here's what I said: "You do remember that once, scientific studies showed that cigarettes were safe and doctors recommended them". Why safe? Because there's "no evidence of harm". I'm not interested to find studies showing those because I know they're not safe. I'm showing you that was the tobacco science during that era. Dr. Morris Fishbein is mentioned here. Look him up, quite a prominent figure of the AMA once. “Everyone knew but no one had proof”: tobacco industry use of medical history expertise in US courts, 1990–2002 “Everyone knew but no one had proofâ€: tobacco industry use of medical history expertise in US courts, 1990–2002 Those cases that I posted are those that were caught. There are plenty who aren't. Yes, I've found quite a number, it's not hard, be creative and use some keywords. I never said these cases were a conspiracy or not. It was you who kept using that word. I implied that these cases happen more than you think, and good to know that you even mentioned that some of them are "common". Here's an interesting book by Dr. Marcia Angell: The Truth About the Drug Companies: How They Deceive Us and What to Do About It (The Truth About the Drug Companies: How They Deceive Us and What to Do About It: Marcia Angell: 9780375760945: Amazon.com: Books) "To rely on the drug companies for unbiased evaluations of their products makes about as much sense as relying on beer companies to teach us about alcoholism." - Dr. Marcia Angell Yup, you're not gonna convince me with what you believe to be facts. I used to be pro-vax once, then I did my own research. The vaccine industry would like for parents to get info only from certain sources the same way our local government would like for Malaysians to get their news only from mainstream media. But parents are waking up, my dear doctor. Yes, let the readers research and evaluate themselves. Adrian Wong : Of course, it's still money but just how much time, effort and money would you spend to protect that 7.6% of your market? Would you jeopardize the remaining 92.4% of your market just to protect that 7.6%? And more importantly, how does this fact (that the vaccine industry is worth X amount of money) prove that vaccines cause autism? It's like quoting how much Toyota makes and using that as the reason why Toyota cars cause accidents. No, I didn't misquote you. You said, and I quote, "You do remember that once, scientific studies showed that cigarettes were safe and doctors recommended them". So I'm now asking you to quote me the scientific studies that you said "showed that cigarettes were safe". As for your claim that safe means "no evidence of harm", please quote me which research claims that. And before you claim yet again that was the tobacco science of the day, please read Cigarettes were once ‘physician’ tested, approved | HemOnc Today Of course, I used the term conspiracy theories, because that's what they are. Everything is either manipulated or fabricated or ghostwritten, etc. Oh, I agree with Dr. Marcia Angell, which is why drugs should continue to be investigated even after they are approved. You do know that she's also famous for speaking out against quackery and alternative medicine...? Really? How does the vaccine industry prevent you from getting information? Are they censoring you? Are they blocking you from accessing anti-vaccination websites? Are they threatening you to keep quiet? Even if you ignore the science, how can you ignore the logic? 1. How can it be possible for the MMR vaccine to cause autism if autism is detected months before the vaccine is administered? 2. If vaccines cause autism, then why are unvaccinated children autistic too? 3. If vaccines cause autism, then why is the prevalence of autism the same for both vaccinated and unvaccinated communities? 4. Why didn't the rate of autism decrease even when the purported cause (thiomerosal) was removed from vaccines? I've asked you to answer these questions many times, but you have always avoided answering them. Why?
Irene Wong : By not ending my sentences with a smiley face doesn't mean that I am agitated. Yes, you seems emotional, by throwing out words like attacks, insults and name calling. Yes, are you telling me it is ok to inject foreign DNA into our body? Adrian Wong : Of course, it doesn't. But you sound agitated. Which is why I advised you to just let it out. Keeping one's frustration inside is bad for one's health. Really? So how does the injection of foreign DNA change our genetic make-up? Do explain. Irene Wong : Wow. Adrian, seems like you don't want to answer my question. Shiafeihing Leong : Whatever it is, we have to accept the fact we all live longer because of vaccination, i believe people nowadays have the luxury to decide not to vaccinate is because most of the people have been vaccinated. There's no rocket science needed, just look at TB, why do african countries have the most incidences and the america and europe have the least, because they have started the programme long time ago. I'm leaving in sabah and working in hospital. Why does sabah has more TB cases, simply because sabah has more illegal immigrants who did not get vaccinated. Adverse effect and side effect are different in the sense that side effect is the effect that occur due to the action of the Irene Wong : Patrick Ong, that is my concern too. If the families cannot prove that their child is vaccine injured, do you think that they will be awarded damages? In order for them to do that, they fought tooth and nail, because you have to have a solid prove and within the timeline, a strong case, in order for you to win the case. Legal arguments definitely is not science, but the proofs that you have to present to the courts are. If that is not enough, take a look at the vaccine insert for the listed adverse reactions. Shiafeihing Leong : Drug at other side of the body, so we can anticipate side efects. Eg, chemo drug acts on the vomiting centre of ur brain thus causing vomiting, but adverse events are the event that happen when the drug is administer not related to the actioof the drug. So if a drug is under surveillance, evn when u meet an accident it will be counted as an adverse event. So autism in my opinion is not a strong reason not to vacine as it has no proven mechanism. Shiafeihing Leong : Measles, Mumps, and Rubella -- Vaccine Use and Strategies for Elimination of Measles, Rubella, and Congenital Rubella Syndrome and Control of Mumps: Recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) Shiafeihing Leong : Emm, come to think about it, everyday millions of foreign dna are entering our body. So whats the big deal? Patrick Ong : Exactly. The Fact that the court awarded the child compensation proves very clearly that there IS indeed a link. Adrian, what makes you so sure that no scientific evidence was presented and argued by both sides? I have not read the court transcripts. Have you? Irene Wong : What kind of millions of DNA that enter our body everyday? Care to explain? I am certainly not talking about dust particles that you inhale, food that you ingest. I am talking about you injecting foreign DNA into your bloodstream intramuscularly. Leona Mei Ling Lim : Our ancestors can live hundreds of years, we can live longer Becoz of vaccinations? Another joke. Koh Shir Li : Autism runs in the family....ppl that I know that have autistic child...theirs are the 1st in the family history which the parents don't understand as well... Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : It is you who don't want to answer my question - How does the injection of foreign DNA change our DNA? If what you say is true, then every time someone receives whole blood or white blood cell transfusion, the DNA of the donor changes the DNA of the recipient? I think you are reading too many comics. A spider bite contains spider DNA, but its DNA won't change our DNA and turn us into Spiderman. Similarly, a mosquito or a dog bite would contain their DNA but do you see anyone turning into MosquitoMan or CanineMan? Why do you think I'm curious as to why you say that the injection of foreign DNA can change our DNA. Do explain. Adrian Wong : Patrick Ong : As I pointed out - the courts can rule in favour of anything but it doesn't mean that they are right. So many court convictions have been overturned because of new discoveries based on new evidence, especially DNA evidence. They are not infallible. Are our courts correct in letting the murderers of Altantuya go? By your logic, the fact that they convicted them proves that they have the evidence. Similarly, since they convicted LGE under the Sedition Act, why are we complaining? By your logic, they have to be right, so LGE must definitely have broken the law. Is that really true? You have also obviously not read what I posted about why the court rulings don't mean anything - http://forums.techarp.com/adrian-wong/27616-courts-quietly-confirm-mmr-vaccine-causes-autism.html Adrian Wong : Leona Mei Ling Lim : I would love to see your proof that our ancestors lived hundreds of years. Adrian Wong : Koh Shir Li : Just because we don't yet understand how autism "strikes", it doesn't mean we get to simply blame... vaccines or the sale of organic foods (see the chart below). Just because there is a correlation doesn't mean there's causation. Patrick Ong : Lol how did spiderman's DNA come into this conversation? Adrian Wong : Patrick Ong : It came into the conversation when Irene Wong suggested that injecting foreign DNA into our body will change our DNA.
Irene Wong : LOL!!! I have not thought of Spiderman! Blood transfusion, white cell transfusion, aren't they tested for compatibility and screened before being administered to the recipient? Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : Compatibility doesn't mean they have the same DNA. The DNA remains different. Anyway, do explain how does the injection of foreign DNA change our DNA? If possible, do quote us evidence of such a transformation, outside of comic books, of course. Patrick Ong : Adrian, ur saying d court awarded a million dollars damages to d victims based on no scientific evidence whatsoever to tie vaccines to autism? Highly unlikely la, I'm sure d lawyers must have done their homework and research to present alternative independent scientific studies to d court to prove otherwise. Irene Wong : What's the right technical jargon? Interference? Contaminants? Changes? If vaccines are safe, they will have no case of allergies, heck, they don't even need to list the adverse reactions, set up VAERS and vaccine court. I am certainly not thinking about Spiderman or Cicakman when I mentioned foreign DNA. If you, as a doctor, can make a mockery out of a very serious conversation, how does that reflect your character? If you think that what I have suggested is an insult to your intelligence, an insult to science, why don't you explain how it is okay that every baby being injected with the contaminants? Are you saying that yes, chicken embryo causes egg allergy but nothing happens with human diploid cells? The case of SV40 contaminants from the monkey kidney cells in the polio vaccine. That is enough to raise an alarm bell. By bringing up LGE and Altantuya, is that necessary? It is like comparing an apple to an orange. Does that mean to say that they award the damages without having the families to prove concrete evidence? Or are you suggesting that evidenced can be fabricated so that the court award the damages? Speaking of fruits, if an apple is injected with aluminum, trace amount of thimerosal, formaldehyde, neomycin, human/monkey/cow/pig cells, would you eat it? I have been vaccinated as a child, as an adult, but the doctors never tell me about what are in a vaccine, never tell me about the possible side effects however rare. Do you think that's right? For a doctor not disclosing all the informations to us, but to expect us to believe doctors 100% just because they are certified doctors, is that right? If that is right, how come doctors never sign agreements with their patients that they will be fully responsible for any AEFI? Speaking of which reminds me that we cannot slap the pharmas with lawsuit. Yeap, the law protects the pharmas. Raymond Wong : "Anyway, do explain how does the injection of foreign DNA change our DNA?" Oh my, this statement coming out from a Dr? Is it time to get a kidney transplant from a gorilla? Organs rejection didn't exist? Venom of snakes and spiders, a protein disrupting our DNA was a hoax? Dallas Wong : Well, Adrian, big pharma isn't just protecting the vaccine part of their industry. There is also lots of controversial issues with other aspects of medicine, like psychotropic drugs and cancer treatments among others, but that's another topic entirely. Yes, you misquoted me. I never said the industry claimed that cigarettes were healthy. Healthy and safe are two different meanings. I showed you a cigarette ad that says scientific evidence showed that there's no adverse effect from smoking. Instead of asking me for a study, you should be asking, if there were no studies on this, why did the relevant authorities including the AMA allowed such an ad or claim to go unchallenged? In fact, any studies done are probably hidden somewhere by now to cover the embarassment of claiming that smoking was safe. Lots of things disappear over time when it doesn't give a good image, like for example, recently CDC took down from their website a page that admits some batches of polio vaccines during the 1950/60s were contaminated with the SV40 virus. Yup, so they do censor or hide some information. "Everything is either manipulated or fabricated or ghostwritten, etc." You need to pay attention. I didn't say "everything". I said it's happening more often than you think, and here's more examples: ----- “Six of the top medical journals published a significant number of articles in 2008 that were written by ghostwriters, according to a study released Thursday by editors of The Journal of the American Medical Association.” "According to the study, responding authors reported a 10.9 percent rate of ghostwriting in The New England Journal of Medicine, the highest rate among the journals. The study also reported a ghostwriting rate of 7.9 percent in JAMA, 7.6 percent in The Lancet, 7.6 percent in PLoS Medicine, 4.9 percent in The Annals of Internal Medicine, and 2 percent in Nature Medicine.” Ghostwriting Is Called Rife in Medical Journals http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/business/11ghost.html ----- “Merck paid an undisclosed sum to Elsevier to produce several volumes of a publication that had the look of a peer-reviewed medical journal, but contained only reprinted or summarised articles–most of which presented data favourable to Merck products–that appeared to act solely as marketing tools with no disclosure of company sponsorship.” Merck Published Fake Journal Merck Published Fake Journal | Nutri-Link Ltd - Clinical Education ----- Again: Lies, Damned Lies, and Medical Science Lies, Damned Lies, and Medical Science - David H. Freedman - The Atlantic Why Most Published Research Findings Are False PLOS Medicine: Why Most Published Research Findings Are False ----- As for your questions: 1. You are just harping on the MMR and thimerosal but it really isn't just the MMR or thimerosal that parents are worried about. It could be a number of factors that involved other vaccines and ingredients as well. Pregnant women are now injected with flu vaccines that contain thimerosal. An infant get vaccinated on their first day once they come into this world and will receive more vaccines (some now containing aluminum) in the months and years to come. "Even if you ignore the science, how can you ignore the logic?" Yes, let's talk about logic and science. Even fire needs 3 elements for it to start - oxygen, heat and fuel (paper, wood...etc). Party 1 says wood can be a contributing factor for a fire to start. Party 2 uses cloth, but no wood to start a fire. So does this mean wood doesn't contribute to the causation of fire? And this is how the "science" or "logic" claiming no link between autism and mmr (or thimerosal) is flawed. Autism rate not decreasing with the removal of thimerosal in most vaccines is not proof that thimerosal may not be a possible cause. And again, parents are worried about more than just autism. Studies supporting vaccine/autism causation Studies supporting vaccine/autism causation | Australian Vaccination Network, Inc 2. Because autism could be caused by other factors as well. Recently, there's been several articles linking GMO food and autism. 3. I don't believe they've done a proper vaccinated versus (completely) unvaccinated study. Even Dr. Coleen Boyle from the CDC admitted they have not, here - (The AutismOne & Generation Rescue 2013 Congressional Panel - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wwDPcNdxJQ). 4. See no. 1 and 2. In fact, Dr. Russell Blaylock, a neurosurgeon, can give you answers to some of your questions in his presentation - (How Vaccines Harm Child Brain Development - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QBcMYqlaDs). Happy watching! Fred Pui : Nice work Dallas Wong
Shiafeihing Leong : Come on we inhale thousands and millions of viruses, bacteria and fungus into our body, they all go into our bloodstream where our immune system, dealt with them, aren't they DNA? Even when HIV a retrovirus entered your body, it merely intergrate its DNA in to your cell genome so you will help produce their protein, it does not change your DNA struture, you do not transform into an encapsulated cell like them. Shiafeihing Leong : Every medication has adverse reaction, just how many percent of autism will be the main concern, millions and millions of people get vaccinated, how many of them got autism? And also, please bear in mind that, lawyers can be as bad as big pharma companies. Irene Wong : Integration of DNA... Is that the right word to use? When HIV virus enters the body, it integrates into the our cells... doesn't that account for changes in our genetic codes? Shiafeihing Leong : Your coding of gene is still the same, and it only attach to CD4 cells. Some other viruses do the same thing but unfortunately HIV is constantly evolving that y its hard to eliminate. And this is already the worst case scenario. Other viruses certainly cant do what the hiv virus can do, so it is juz over concerned.. Irene Wong : Asking how many percent of autism will be the main concern, equates to telling me that autism is an acceptable adverse reaction because it is not so much? How do u know that if we are not told about AeFI by doctors, we are not told about farmakovigilans, we are not told how to report adverse reactions, and with that said, how many doctors and vaccinated population report the side effects to farmakovigilans here in Malaysia? I think many members here do not know about farmakovigilans. Death is also a rare adverse reaction, are we told about it? Very rare doesn't mean zero. Yes, you have just admitted that big pharmas are just as bad. Raymond Wong : Shiafeihing Leong, you speak so confidently on the DNA, perhaps it would be better if we give a demo to help educate all of us. Lets inject 20 ml of HIV virus into your blood and show how safe it is. I will reward you Rm 10000 for this enlightenment. Or you can chose to inject 20 ml of snake blood into your bloodstream after the Chinese drink them for elixir. Dallas Wong : Shiafeihing Leong, are you a doctor? "Come on we inhale thousands and millions of viruses, bacteria and fungus into our body, they all go into our bloodstream where our immune system, dealt with them, aren't they DNA?" In that case, why so afraid of things like measles and chicken pox? Take a look at this episode of The Brady Bunch during the 1960s where all 6 kids had the measles and nobody was worried. That was how the Americans viewed measles then. The Brady Bunch Season 1 Episode 13 - Is There A Doctor In The House? - YouTube This was, of course, before all the fearmongering of measles and the propaganda to push vaccines. The public perception of measles sure has changed a lot since then, huh? Anyway, you're free to vaccinate your own kids. No one is forcing anyone to or not to over here. Just research and make an informed decision for your kids. Irene Wong : 'your coding of gene is still the same'... Are you trying to tell me that even though you are exposed to harmful substances, our genetic coding sequence is still the same? That our genetic coding sequence will not mutate? Shiafeihing Leong : Raymond wong are you out of your mind? Why would anyone wants to inject hiv virus into their own body? Did any statement of mine stated that it is safe to inject hiv vaccine into the body? -.-" i was saying, even hiv virus cant change your genome, it does have the ability to kill you. I am a pharmacist and i certainly do a lot of research on drugs, ya, chicken pox and meales are not as bad as it is tot, but what i am worrying is about non vaccination. As i said before, look at youself, just how many of you have not had any vaccine? Any of you autistic? Now people have the luxury to think about not vaccinating their children because most of the population had been vaccinated, that's where my stand. Shiafeihing Leong : Dallas wong, that's y i was saying, we are taking in too many things which can harm our body everyday, why so afraid of vaccination? Shiafeihing Leong : You got your point there y theres an organ rejection. It is because transplanting an organ into our body does not change our DNA, that's y there is REJECTION!! Because our DNA can recognise them as foreign DNA. Shiafeihing Leong : Im also a snake lover, from what i noe snake venom mostly consist of neurotoxin and hemotoxin, well it distrupt our DNA, it does not Change our genome, genetic make up. If i use fire to burn you, you dna will be destryoed as well. Dallas Wong : Shiafeihing Leong, "As i said before, look at youself, just how many of you have not had any vaccine? Any of you autistic?" You may want to check how many vaccines were given to children in the 1960s/70s/80s/90s and now, and at what age they were given, before asking such questions. I certainly wasn't injected on my first day into this world. I never had the mmr vaccine, nor the rotavirus vaccine. Also never had the chicken pox or the hpv vaccines (which in some parts of the USA, are now being recommended for teen males). I think my kids were vaccinated with more vaccines up to 6 months, than I was up to 6 years. Remembered I said I was pro-vax? Yes, I vaccinated my kids up to 6 months and stopped there after doing my research. No more. "why so afraid of vaccination?" Because I feel the risks outweighs the alleged benefits. That's my personal opinion based on my research. Again, you're free to do as you will with your own kids. Shiafeihing Leong : Irene wong, i am dealing with a lot of big pharma companies, but i can tell you, apart from bad, they have saved millions of life. Adverse reactions are unavoidable, we medical professionals make decision based on risk vs benefit, yes, maybe you lot can think that, measles, chicken pox won't kill. But there are certainly more serious cases where people can die. Will you stip Shiafeihing Leong : Yourself from driving or travel by car because you know that you can die from
Dallas Wong : Oh gosh...the car example again. It's really two different things. Yes, there's risks in everything including staying in your own house. A plane may just come crashing into you. I choose which risks I want to take for my kids and vaccination is not one of them. So stop trying to convince me. Thank you for your effort! Shiafeihing Leong : I am sorry that most of the pulic were not informed about side effects and info about vaccines. But i believe with the increasing number of medical professionals, we will be able to provide better care. Shiafeihing Leong : Definately not trying to convince you. Just that i think that the car accident anology makes more sense than using a plane crash to a house analogy as car accident does have higher risk. I am going to sign off and i believe in the futher your child will be vaccinated in some point in the life. Peaceeeee... Hoayyung Kow : 'Now ppl have the luxury to think of not vaccinating their children because most of the population had been vaccinated'??? U probably dun have a child yet. I'm not a professional or an expert like u guys, I'm just a mum to my child. My reason to study more on vaccines is because I'm afraid that vaccines will harm my precious child. I dun take a damn care whether the population had been vaccinated or not? So many ppl out there had been vaccinated and still contract the deseases rite? I would appreciate if any1 can assure me tat vaccines work n do no harm? Even if the AEFI is 1 in a million, can any1 assure me tat my child won't be the 1? Patrick Ong : The other fear that I have of vaccines is that it may protect our child fr X disease but open up a back door to other diseases. Teri Liew : Eric Goh, i really feel for u. yours is not the first case. there is a mom whose son had multiple fits a day after the pneumo jab. her boy was only 2 months old then. due to long term meds to control fits, the kidney is now affected. no doctor wanted to admit it was the jab. few other moms r somewhat "luckier" the doctors admit that it was vaccine that caused autism BUUT they would not put it down in black n white. u know i don't take my kids to paeds so i hardly see doctors so i don't know how they are. but i have heard fr many parents, doctors need " Basic manners 101.. NOW i finally understand what those parents mean... autistic kids have been cured. it is a lot of work.. a whole damn lot of work and it has caused many marriages. Hang in there. i am sure with your determination, your son can be cured. Adrian Wong : Patrick Ong : Come on lah.. there are many cases where the courts have convicted innocent people. What makes you think that they are always correct? The fact that many convictions are either thrown out in appeals, or overturned when new evidence is found points out to the fallibility of the legal system. In fact, if what you claim is true - there is scientific evidence that vaccines cause autism, the parents of EVERY AUTISTIC CHILD would be suing the pharmaceutical industry. Why aren't they doing so? In such court cases, it is often cheaper to just pay off these claims than to fight them. It's like getting a summon of RM 300 because a driver in front of you braked and you hit him. You want to waste time and money going to court to argue it? You would still lose because even thought it was not your fault, the law says you are in the wrong... and you would still have to pay the fine and court fees, etc. So it's better to just pay up. Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : Forget about technical jargons. Heck, forget about the science. Your basic premise itself is logically flawed. I'm not making a mockery out of you. You did that yourself by claiming that injecting foreign DNA can change our own DNA. I'm merely pointing out to you what that means - if what you say is true, then anyone who was bitten by a mosquito would have mosquito DNA in their DNA. Does it make sense? Whether you like it or not, every baby will be injected with foreign DNA even if vaccines never existed in the first place. Mosquitoes bite -> foreign DNA gets injected. Bed bugs bite -> foreign DNA gets injected. Ants bite -> foreign DNA gets injected. Fleas bite -> foreign DNA gets injected. They are also exposed to foreign DNA is other ways. Dog licks -> foreign DNA. Cat licks -> foreign DNA. Auntie or uncle kiss -> foreign DNA. Grandmother mouths the porridge to cool it before feeding it to the child -> foreign DNA. Eat rice -> foreign DNA from rice weevils. Etc. SV40 lagi? LOL! First of all, certain batches of the polio vaccine produced between 1955-1961 were contaminated with the SV40 simian virus. That was before PCR was invented, which allowed for easier detection of the virus. Since 1962, there has been NO FURTHER contamination by SV40 because we can now test for it. Also, you will note that the SV40 contamination was not discovered by some "concerned parent" but an NIH researcher called Bernice Eddy. Source - Another antivaccine zombie meme: polio vaccine and SV40 and cancer, oh, my! « Science-Based Medicine You will also note that if SV40 is ingested, which is what happens when you take the OPV (most common form of the polio vaccine), it passes out through your stool without getting absorbed. Only if it's injected, will the body actually form antibodies against it. Even then, long term studies have found that the cancer rate of those injected with the SV40-contaminated vaccine and those who were not REMAINED THE SAME. Why not? Irrespective of the type of case, the court system is fallible. If they make such a major error in judgement with respects to those two cases, can they not make an error in judgement in awarding those patients? After all, those are the exceptions to the general rule - no other autistic cases have successfully sued and won money. Now you want to go into fruits? LOL! Since when were we speaking of fruits? It was you who brought up fruits, which I would like to point out is yet another irrelevant point in the question of whether vaccines cause autism. Well, when you were a child, I doubt that you would understand the risk factors even if a doctor did explain it to you. As an adult, you can ask about the side effects. Did any doctor refuse to tell you about the side effects of any drugs they prescribe to you? In fact, every box of a particular drug will come with an info sheet that lists the potential side effects and how common they are. Why should a doctor be responsible for any AEFI? If you get injured in an accident, would you ask the surgeon to sign an agreement that he would be responsible for ensuring that he will succeed and you will not suffer any ill effects at all? In which industry would you see such an event like that happening? Interesting... if people cannot sue pharmaceutical industries, then how the heck did people like Ryan Mojabi get compensation?
Adrian Wong : Raymond Wong : Yes, because I know of no such ability. Maybe only in comic books, as I pointed out. Organ rejection, as Shiafeihing pointed out, happens because the foreign DNA in the transplanted organ does not change our DNA. That's why it's being rejected by our body. If it can change our DNA, then there wouldn't be organ rejection... Venom of snakes and spiders destroy protein and DNA. It doesn't change them in the sense the DNA is usable. It certainly wouldn't change the person's DNA, just destroy proteins and DNA, amongst other things, in the affected area. Dallas Wong : Adrian... "In fact, if what you claim is true - there is scientific evidence that vaccines cause autism, the parents of EVERY AUTISTIC CHILD would be suing the pharmaceutical industry. Why aren't they doing so?" Parents can't sue vaccine manufacturers Parents can't sue vaccine manufacturers - SFGate Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : You are right that measles isn't a particularly dangerous disease. Most kids will ride it out without any complication. But some kids will develop pneumonia, or acute measles encephalitis of which 15% will die from it. A smaller number will develop panencephalitis, which is usually fatal. Even if the child doesn't die, he/she will suffer brain damage. So if there's a vaccine that can prevent all that, why not take it? The risk may be relatively small, but if your child is the unlucky one that gets pneumonia / encephalitis, then it is a risk that you wished you never took. Vaccination is not only about protecting your own kids. It's about protecting other people's kids. There are some kids who cannot be vaccinated, because they are immunocompromised for example. Thus, they have no choice but to rely on the community's herd immunity to protect them. But if parents refuse to vaccinate their children and they get infected, then they could spread the disease to these vulnerable children. Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : You asked 'your coding of gene is still the same'... Are you trying to tell me that even though you are exposed to harmful substances, our genetic coding sequence is still the same? That our genetic coding sequence will not mutate? YES! Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : As I pointed out before, the greater number of vaccines mean we can now protect our children against more diseases than before. This is called PROGRESS. It's like last time, we didn't have computers or telephones. Does that mean it's bad that our children have access to computers and telephones? If you are concerned about the antigen load, you will note that in the past, the 5 vaccines that children are given have over 3000 different antigens. Today, the 11 vaccines our children get have less than 130 different antigens. Adrian Wong : Hoayyung Kow : I'm a father, and I'm telling you - from a parent to another - not vaccinating your child is like gambling with your child's life. You want to study more about vaccines, congratulations. But you have to study the facts, not just the claims. Weed out the claims (anyone can make them) and focus on the facts. Even if the science confounds you, consider the logic : 1. The rate of autism is THE SAME for both vaccinated and unvaccinated children, so obviously, not vaccinating the child does not reduce the risk of getting autism. 2. Autism can be detected in children as young as 4 months of age, while the MMR vaccine is only administered at 12-15 months of age. So how can the MMR vaccine cause autism? 3. Children who were NOT vaccinated still end up autistic. So not vaccinating your child does not mean he/she won't be autistic. Sure, you don't care about what other people do. But consider the risks you are putting your child into. Malaysia is still not free from polio, which can kill or permanently cripple an infected child. Measles can cause encephalitis which can damage a child's brain or kill him/her. Mumps can cause reduced fertility, if not sterility. I'm not trying to scare you, but to point out that these are all PREVENTABLE diseases. Our ancestors didn't have these vaccines in the past and look at how many died or suffered from those diseases. Now that we have these vaccines, why are we not using them? No one can assure you of anything in life. Show me which industry can guarantee you anything? When you fly, can the airlines guarantee that the plane won't crash? When you buy a house, can the developer guarantee that your house won't collapse? When you apply to go to a university, can that university guarantee that you will get a good paying job when you graduate? When your parents gave birth to you, can anyone guarantee them that you will grow up to be a good person? There are NO guarantees in life. Adrian Wong : Patrick Ong : You said, "The other fear that I have of vaccines is that it may protect our child fr X disease but open up a back door to other diseases." Do you have any basis for your fear? Or is this just a feeling? Adrian Wong : Teri Liew : You cannot cure autism because it is NOT a disease. It is a developmental disorder. The good news is that we can work with these kids to improve their development and behaviour. With good, consistent therapy, many of these kids have improved to the point that they are no longer considered autistic. That's not a cure but a recovery from ASD. Steven Tang Lai Chuan : Adrian, Can u explain why every time after the jab. Kid tense to get fever n Dr wil prescribe medician to stop fever. Shia Million : what about this Parents' fear of vaccinations nearly killed their son - ABC Perth - Australian Broadcasting Corporation Son's ordeal was our fault, say parents - National - NZ Herald News
Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : You said that "Parents can't sue vaccine manufacturers" and gave me a link... Did you even read it??? It stated VERY CLEARLY that those parents cannot sue the vaccine manufacturer in STATE court in the United States, because a 1986 law already allows them to sue the manufacturer in a "vaccine court", which they had already done. So you are wrong that parents cannot sue vaccine manufacturers. They just cannot simply waste the courts' time by shopping their lawsuit all over the US until they get a verdict they like. Teri Liew : Oh yee of little faith. LOL Adrian Wong : Steven Tang Lai Chuan : What jab are you referring to? A vaccination injection? That's because vaccines work by provoking the body to produce antibodies against the infectious agent. It does this by using identifying proteins, or even weakened or inactivated versions of the infectious agents to trigger the body's immune system. So the child may get a fever because that's how the body works. When confronted with an infection (or the perception of an infection), the body produces antibodies and raises the body temperature to fight the infection. This is a normal physiological reaction. Adrian Wong : Teri Liew : Actually.. I have NO faith, because faith is belief in the absence of evidence. I only accept evidence, not faith. Teri Liew : Doesn't surprise me : ) As for evidence, I guess u only accept if it is favorable to u monetarily? Steven Tang Lai Chuan : Yes. Vaccination as what Patrick Ong start this topic. Tks for sharing. Does it mean tat fever is good as it need to raise up d temparature to fight infection? Adrian Wong : Teri Liew : Nope, as I said - I go with the evidence. As for your claim that these evidence are favourable to me monetarily, do tell us what you mean by that. Adrian Wong : Steven Tang Lai Chuan : It's the body's way of fighting infection, so unless the fever is too high or too uncomfortable for the child, we generally don't recommend taking medication. Eric Goh : I urge all parents here to think carefully and do their research. I took a gamble on vaccinating my child and my whole family is suffering daily because of it. I do not wish that to happen to more families. Please google and search for the information, there is plenty out there. I chose not to continue to argue this topic not because I do not have the facts. Its just that there are many points and counterpoints. It all online and you can find it yourself. As a parent of an autistic child, most of us are tired of arguing with pro-vacc advocates, we wanna focus on getting our child back, there is little time to fight them in forums or courts etc. Think about it, what do we gain by telling you about the dangers? What do the big pharma and doctors associated with them gain by promoting vacc? Vacc is a billion dollar industry after all. Dallas Wong : Eric Goh, please check your pm - other folders. Dallas Wong : Shia Million, what about this: Informed Choice: More than just ‘yes’ or ‘no’ Informed Choice: More than just ?yes? or ?no? | Warnings About Vaccine Expectations NZ Or this: “Severe (grade III) tetanus occurred in three immunized patients who had high serum levels of anti-tetanus antibody. The disease was fatal in one patient.” Severe tetanus in immunized patients with high anti-tetanus titers. Severe tetanus in immunized patients with high ant... [Neurology. 1992] - PubMed - NCBI Or this: Ian's Voice Ian's Voice Dallas Wong : Adrian, in case you didn't read it properly, it is an article titled "Parents can't sue vaccine manufacturers". We've been over this before. Getting any compensation from the vaccine court is not the same as suing the manufacturer. Compensation from the vaccine court comes from add on taxes placed on vaccines paid for by those who receive vaccines, not from vaccine manufacturers. So, vaccine manufacturers don't pay anything. This is the second time I have mentioned this. Steven Tang Lai Chuan : Adrian Wong. I agreed wt u " body raised up temparature to fight infection". Does it means tat if d temperature of d body keep on increase, said 40C +. Is it posible to say that there is still got infection to fight? Adrian Wong : Eric Goh : Are you claiming that I'm pro-vaccination because I stand to gain financially from it? How so? FYI, I do not sell vaccines or benefit financially from them in any way whatsoever. In fact, our children can get vaccinated FOR FREE, so why should any doctor stand to gain from promoting vaccination? Vaccines are a minor segment of the pharmaceutical industry. In fact, without grants, most pharmaceutical companies aren't really interested in making vaccines. After all, a vaccine is taken only once, or a few times in a lifetime. Also, if a vaccine is successful and wipes out the disease, it is no longer necessary. Look at the smallpox vaccine. Is it given any more? Of course, not... because we wiped out smallpox with the vaccine! Shia Million : very difficult to become a doctor today. pity doctors who are really noble, who really want to help others and save lives. people these days feel insecure and i guess they just dont trust anyone anymore. anyway Adrian Wong, thank u so much for what u have shared. really love this thread and i'd like to share this thread with my friends who asked for vaccination information. also credits to other parents who are not in medical fields. the terms and knowledge and science that u read AMAZE me. even i myself are not aware of some of the things discussed here. whew. thumbs up for that! lets begin a new day tmr. this will never end Adrain. they wont give up and its a merry go round now you have put forth your explanations with evidence and answered all the questions. thank u so much! i truly love this thread. thank u everyone for your contribution
