The Pirated Software Discussion Thread!

[Adrian Wong]

Originally Posted by wodenus

Some little girls are really clued in. Look at papercut's post.. proves my point precisely

I think instead of demeaning everyone, we should give people more credit for their intelligence.

Maybe I'm an optimist. But I have seen people learn to use P2P software within 5 minutes. So, I don't think it's that hard to learn. Try it.

Originally Posted by wodenus

At five sen per page.. it would cost less than six bux and laser quality too

Laser quality prints on an inkjet at only 5 sen (USD 0.013)? You got to be kidding.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Fair enough.. so don't go saying software companies should provide software for free to students and retirees unless you're prepared to offer books at cost to them as well

I AM saying that very thing. Software companies SHOULD offer software to students and retirees for FREE.

If it's not because of social obligations, then they should do it for their own good. Both to eradicate piracy as well as indirectly encouraging increased sales.

What I have done with my BIOS guide is not enough? Remember, unlike other people, I have backed my words with action.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Any time you make money, you screw someone. I mean, it's not as if it's actually "work" in the true sense of the word. You got something for cheap, or free, and you're selling it for money. People only make profits by screwing other people

ROTFL! From which dark pit on Earth did you pick that philosophy out from?

IMHO, it sounds like you got screwed pretty badly. That's probably why you are so interested in screwing other people back!

Seriously..

There are THOUSANDS of ways to make money. Some ways involve screwing people over. Other ways do not. I believe in NOT screwing people over just for money.

Of course, I'm not saying my way is the RIGHT way. You make the choices, you live with the consequences.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Well people want what they want at the lowest price possible. And pirated software always will have the lowest price.

Oh really? Then how come there ARE people who buy original software? Your general statement makes it sound like EVERYONE will buy pirated software if they have the choice.

Well, we had the choice to use pirated software for ARP but we did not. This example alone shows how flawed your theory is.

Originally Posted by wodenus

You will not encourage anything with lower prices. I don't think less people will use pirated copies. People will always look for the lowest price. And pirated software always will have the lowest price.

I think not. I think the software industry needs a paradigm shift. It has been stuck in the old rut of thinking in terms of profit per copy, instead of overall profit.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Anything with a < five-year development cycle is fast

If Microsoft drops the price of Windows XP, it won't take them five years to see the benefits.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Er.. every industry has the notion that "everyone should pay whatever they want or else". I mean, you never pay what you want to pay, you pay what the seller wants you to pay. It's not limited to the software industry

That's not true at all. In industries that have heavy competition, companies have to price accordingly. If they price too high, they lose sales to other companies. That keeps the prices low.

On the other hand, in an industry with less competition, like our telecommunications industry for example, a single company can monopolize the ENTIRE industry. Look at our Telekom Malaysia. Everything goes through them.

As a monopoly, they don't have to worry about competition. They can charge as much as they want. Therefore, it is a world of difference from an industry with a lot of competition.

The opinion that you have to pay what we ask you to pay, is frankly, nothing short of pure arrogance. But one that's no doubt well suited to the philosophy of screwing people over to make money.

But guess what, nature favours equilibrium. People find ways to adapt / force a change. Piracy is a result of such a situation in the software industry.

Unless the software industry change the way they think.. piracy will always be rampant.

Originally Posted by wodenus

This is all opinion

Yes, but an opinion based on facts and common sense.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Yup. Personally I think people will buy at the lowest price anyway. And pirated software always will have the lowest price. So lowering prices will just mean less profits.

That may be because you think that people do not have the moral fibre to make the right judgement. Try not to think so harshly of your fellow human beings.

IMHO, until you try that method out, you will never know. It's very easy to say, "I personally think" but it's a totally different thing to actually do it and then comment.

Originally Posted by wodenus

You could turn this around and say.. "by selling your book at cost to students..." etc. But you won't do that. Or at least PH won't do that. I don't know why, but I suspect it's the same reason why they don't give software away free.. because they want to make as much profit as possible from it. I think that's the only way. I think lowering prices won't encourage much. Might make a small dent maybe, but most people would still be copying, and they'd end up losing money two ways instead of one

I will have to check my contract but if I'm not mistaken, Prentice-Hall actually does something like that. One thing's for sure, academic institutions are getting massive discounts on my book as well as other books.

BTW, please don't say people don't give software away for free. We have already stated many times that even Microsoft is giving their software away for free.

Err.. So far, all the litigation exercises have done little to improve the situation. And they cost software companies so much in litigation fees. That's a net loss.

As for my suggestion, until software companies try it out, you never know, would you? All you can do is say, "I don't think it will work.".

Originally Posted by wodenus

Yup, people are kiasu

If software companies are kiasu (afraid to lose), then there is nothing more to be said. The situation will continue as it is.

Without a shift in their thinking, there can be no solution to this problem.

[wodenus]

Originally Posted by Chai

Do you have any other words other than saying 'So lowering prices will just mean less profits.' or 'And pirated software always will have the lowest price.'?

I wonder if you have actually bought anything original before! Buying original essures you get the best quality product, with proper support, manual etc. Buying original music essures you get the best quality audio. If you buy pirated software, you need to use cracks, key generators, and you may probably not be able to update to newer versions. If original software are cheaper, I would definitely buy the original.

Oh yeah, since you like to use 'people that are less clued in' as example, why not you say, these people will have problems cracking the software? How many times have you heard people asking 'how to crack this game?' at your nearest store? (for international forumers, piracy in Malaysia is extremely rampant. )

WEll.. he keeps repeating what is essentially the same point, so I did too. You said it yourself.. if original software was cheaper, you'd buy the original. There is no way the original software is gonna be cheaper than the pirated version.

It's not a question of people having problems cracking the software. The original point was that you'd need to pay for security and maintenance if you had an online download site, because if not these things might happen.

I wouldn't call piracy in Malaysia "extremely rampant." It's lower than a whole lot of countries

[Adrian Wong]

Originally Posted by wodenus

Well maybe one of the developers was using his own private copy ?

Do you think a company like Microsoft will allow a developer to use his personal copy, instead of an official copy?

BTW, I personally don't think even Microsoft will allow you to install your personal software in a company computer.

Besides, if you actually buy SoundForge, would you install it in a company computer??

[Adrian Wong]

Originally Posted by wodenus

WEll.. he keeps repeating what is essentially the same point, so I did too. You said it yourself.. if original software was cheaper, you'd buy the original. There is no way the original software is gonna be cheaper than the pirated version.

It's not a question of people having problems cracking the software. The original point was that you'd need to pay for security and maintenance if you had an online download site, because if not these things might happen.

I wouldn't call piracy in Malaysia "extremely rampant." It's lower than a whole lot of countries

Err... Did you actually read what Chai wrote?

He said, if original software was CHEAPER, he would buy original software. He did not say he would buy original software only if it was cheaper THAN pirated software.

That is a sentiment that many people have about the price of software. Whether it's true or not that software is too expensive for the effort companies put into it is not the issue. It doesn't really matter. What matters is the consumer's opinion.

Everyone has a cut-off point for buying what they want. They look at the product and make their own judgement if it's worth buying. If it's way too expensive, they can either choose an alternate product or resort to pirated products.

So, by setting the price point, software companies essentially decide the amount of piracy. Like it or not, it's a fact. If software companies refuse to acknowledge that, then they will never be able to fight piracy conclusively.

BTW, piracy in Malaysia is not that rampant? LOL!! Seriously, do you actually believe that?

Maybe you should tell BSA or SPA. See what they tell you in response.

[wodenus]

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

I think instead of demeaning everyone, we should give people more credit for their intelligence.

Maybe I'm an optimist. But I have seen people learn to use P2P software within 5 minutes. So, I don't think it's that hard to learn. Try it.

I'm not demeaning anyone, I was stating a fact.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Laser quality prints on an inkjet at only 5 sen (USD 0.013)? You got to be kidding.

That's what the catalog says.. want to see it ? it's a laser printer btw

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

I AM saying that very thing. Software companies SHOULD offer software to students and retirees for FREE.

If it's not because of social obligations, then they should do it for their own good. Both to eradicate piracy as well as indirectly encouraging increased sales.

What I have done with my BIOS guide is not enough? Remember, unlike other people, I have backed my words with action.

The book and the website are two different things lots of software publishers already do better than that, offer whole (but somewhat crippled) versions of software for free, and sell supersets

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

ROTFL! From which dark pit on Earth did you pick that philosophy out from?

IMHO, it sounds like you got screwed pretty badly. That's probably why you are so interested in screwing other people back!

Seriously..

There are THOUSANDS of ways to make money. Some ways involve screwing people over. Other ways do not. I believe in NOT screwing people over just for money.

Of course, I'm not saying my way is the RIGHT way. You make the choices, you live with the consequences.

You're selling something for more than it cost you, right ? isn't that screwing people over ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Oh really? Then how come there ARE people who buy original software? Your general statement makes it sound like EVERYONE will buy pirated software if they have the choice.

A small percentage do the right thing. A larger percentage are afraid of prosecution. I'd wager most people would buy original software only if it was cheaper than the pirated version (which it will never be.)

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Well, we had the choice to use pirated software for ARP but we did not. This example alone shows how flawed your theory is.

Well.. using pirated software for something that's always online is a little risky and you're in the minority anyway.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

I think not. I think the software industry needs a paradigm shift. It has been stuck in the old rut of thinking in terms of profit per copy, instead of overall profit.

If Microsoft drops the price of Windows XP, it won't take them five years to see the benefits.

That's only a conjecture

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

That's not true at all. In industries that have heavy competition, companies have to price accordingly. If they price too high, they lose sales to other companies. That keeps the prices low.

Not all industries have heavy or effective competition. And it's not as if Windows doesn't have competition. It's just that they're the best at what the do (humanizing the OS for x86.) No one's stopping anyone from competing with them. It's really not their fault that they have little competition

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

On the other hand, in an industry with less competition, like our telecommunications industry for example, a single company can monopolize the ENTIRE industry. Look at our Telekom Malaysia. Everything goes through them.

I still don't get this part. If as you say everything goes through them, how do other companies even survive ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

As a monopoly, they don't have to worry about competition. They can charge as much as they want. Therefore, it is a world of difference from an industry with a lot of competition.

They are not a monopoly. A monopoly implies exclusive ownership of a market. They don't have that.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

The opinion that you have to pay what we ask you to pay, is frankly, nothing short of pure arrogance. But one that's no doubt well suited to the philosophy of screwing people over to make money.

Oh really ? ever tried to tell a shopkeeper that you're paying what you want to pay ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

But guess what, nature favours equilibrium. People find ways to adapt / force a change. Piracy is a result of such a situation in the software industry.

Piracy is a result of people being greedy. You can't say that book piracy is because people find books too expensive. They copy stuff because they can

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Unless the software industry change the way they think.. piracy will always be rampant.

Blah.. how do you explain book piracy then ? or video piracy ? or just about any piracy ? some of the stuff they copy isn't exactly expensive

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Yes, but an opinion based on facts and common sense.

Don't see that many facts actually this whole argument is pretty short on facts

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

That may be because you think that people do not have the moral fibre to make the right judgement. Try not to think so harshly of your fellow human beings.

I suppose you'd say that, as a med student. But blah, if you ask me, most people would copy stuff if it was easy to do

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

IMHO, until you try that method out, you will never know. It's very easy to say, "I personally think" but it's a totally different thing to actually do it and then comment.

I will have to check my contract but if I'm not mistaken, Prentice-Hall actually does something like that. One thing's for sure, academic institutions are getting massive discounts on my book as well as other books.

I think people are already getting massive discounts on Windows XP. They could have sold it for a lot more but they've effectively discounted the price. I think it's a pretty fair price.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Err.. So far, all the litigation exercises have done little to improve the situation. And they cost software companies so much in litigation fees. That's a net loss.

Not if it succeeds in getting the message across. Are you saying that prosecuting someone for a crime does little to reduce crime rates ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

As for my suggestion, until software companies try it out, you never know, would you? All you can do is say, "I don't think it will work.".

Well that's cos I think the price is quite fair now.

[PsYkHoTiK]

Originally Posted by wodenus

You're selling something for more than it cost you, right ? isn't that screwing people over ?

Nope. (this is off topic) Its a mutual understanding between purchaser and spender. If I wanted something, I would ask someone for their service (for example). I would then "use" that person to acheive my own means. But the thing is, I would repay that person with money and therefore compensate him for his troubles. Thats how it works.

Originally Posted by wodenus

They are not a monopoly. A monopoly implies exclusive ownership of a market. They don't have that.

With 97% of the world using them? U think?
http://www.winnetmag.com/Article/Art...481/40481.html
http://www.onestat.com/html/aboutus_pressbox10.html

Originally Posted by wodenus

Piracy is a result of people being greedy. You can't say that book piracy is because people find books too expensive. They copy stuff because they can

Nope. While that may apply to some people, to others, they just cant afford them. Think of some of the malaysians making bare minimum. The cost of software would be a considerable fraction of their monthly income. This is how piracy gets a strong foot hold in 3rd world countries. For students studying architecture and designing, and they come from not so well to do families. Do you think they can afford the software that they're using? Wouldn't it be better if companies gave them basic copies to learn with. When they work, the company that hires them will then get those software (hence, an investment.) So by saying that all people buy pirated software because they're greedy, that statement is self defeating.

Some people aren't as privalaged as others, so they dont have the luxury of buying original software. Which brings me to my next point:

Originally Posted by wodenus

Blah.. how do you explain book piracy then ? or video piracy ? or just about any piracy ? some of the stuff they copy isn't exactly expensive

Some stuff arent that expensive. Book piracy (plagurism) goes on because the foreign text books are so expensive. My previous courses were on professional accounting and required books from the UK as well as the US. Books are VERY expensive. I was able to buy those books. But some of my friends weren't able to. They just cant afford it.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Don't see that many facts actually this whole argument is pretty short on facts

I just gave some.

Originally Posted by wodenus

I suppose you'd say that, as a med student. But blah, if you ask me, most people would copy stuff if it was easy to do

I wouldn't be quick on putting him down. He has a great sense of conceptualism and he is one of the few people that I trully respect. Respect is earned, not given.

Originally Posted by wodenus

I think people are already getting massive discounts on Windows XP. They could have sold it for a lot more but they've effectively discounted the price. I think it's a pretty fair price.

Now that is an opinion...

http://12.129.203.38/cgi-bin/diction...pinion&x=0&y=0

The ones above (that I gave) is called an assertion.
http://12.129.203.38/cgi-bin/diction...y&va=assertion

Now lets get back to topic. I know I stepped out myself, but that is for the things I felt needed answering. Stick to Software Piracy now. Not book piracy, not printing, and not SDLC.

Or else I'd probably use this thread to sharp my horns with...

[Papercut]

Originally Posted by wodenus

Some little girls are really clued in. Look at papercut's post.. proves my point precisely

I'm just trying to prove the point that P2P networks are safe to use, and you have no evidence to prove otherwise. Don't try to stir anything else up.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Well people want what they want at the lowest price possible. And pirated software always will have the lowest price.

You will not encourage anything with lower prices. I don't think less people will use pirated copies. People will always look for the lowest price. And pirated software always will have the lowest price.

Don't make sweeping assumptions if you don't have any evidence to back it up. Would you like to do an Internet survey and ask people their opinions? Whether they would buy the original software if it was cheaper? I'm certain you will find that a very significant percentage of them will. As Chai pointed out, there are the benefits of original software which will sway people's decisions, such as instruction manuals and tech support. Essentially you would also be appealing to the people who have a CONSCIENCE - those who buy pirated software knowing that it's wrong, but do so because the original is just too expensive. By lowering the price of original software, they will buy the original and have peace of mind knowing that their software is perfectly legal.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Er.. every industry has the notion that "everyone should pay whatever they want or else". I mean, you never pay what you want to pay, you pay what the seller wants you to pay. It's not limited to the software industry

That's simply not true. Ordinarily, the customer ALWAYS comes first. Producers spend huge amounts of time and money studying consumer behaviour and then evaluating how much revenue they can earn at a specific price, and/or then look at their competition to see what kind of prices they are charging.
Microsoft is the exception; they have a monopoly which allows them to pretty much do whatever they want (for the time being). Look at any other consumer product that you buy; if one particular brand was expensive, you would buy another brand that is cheaper. But in this case, there are no alternatives.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Yup. Personally I think people will buy at the lowest price anyway. And pirated software always will have the lowest price. So lowering prices will just mean less profits.

Also not true, and Adrian has explained it wonderfully.

[Papercut]

Originally Posted by wodenus

They're already quite low.. and what about small-time developers ? if they had high prices (or prices you consider high) you wouldn't be against that ?

HAHAHAHA! The point is that if small-time developers charged high prices, nobody would buy their software! It's as simple as that (unless you absolutely need their software or it was developed specially for you).

Originally Posted by wodenus

How do you know it's still not having an effect ? it's not reported these days because it's not news any more. But that doesn't mean it's not effective any more.

Simply reporting it in the news doesn't make it effective. What they were trying to do was to scare people away from sharing MP3s via Kazaa, LimeWire, etc. Some people did get scared and stopped sharing/downloading MP3s for a while, but after that what did the users do? Switch to another P2P network, of course. And everything is almost back to normal now. Everything that you could have found on P2P before the lawsuits is still available for download today. That's undeniable evidence that what the RIAA did wasn't effective. And as someone who doesn't download MP3s, I don't think you are in any position to argue with me about this.

[Adrian Wong]

Originally Posted by wodenus

I'm not demeaning anyone, I was stating a fact.

Err.. Facts?

The fact is P2P software is incredibly popular and easy to use. That's why there are so many people using it, from the very young to the very old.

If you want a stamp of guarantee on the ease of use and popularity of P2P software, try asking the RIAA.

Originally Posted by wodenus

That's what the catalog says.. want to see it ? it's a laser printer btw

Err.. Earlier you told me to use an inkjet, now it's a laser printer.

Okay, the laser printer prints at 5 sen a page. Each page cost 3 sen, for example. Let's add in the cost of electricity at 2 sen a page.

The BOG book has 368 pages. So the cost of printing the entire book in just black and white laser print, without cover, would be RM 36.80 (USD 9.68).

That is the absolute minimum cost of printing the BOG book yourself, with no binding or cover. And it doesn't include the cost of distributing the book to all over the world.

And let's say we give away 10,000 copies for free, the cost = RM 368,000 (USD 96,800). Is that your idea of almost for nothing?

Originally Posted by wodenus

The book and the website are two different things lots of software publishers already do better than that, offer whole (but somewhat crippled) versions of software for free, and sell supersets

Err.. One minute you say that content is content and it doesn't matter how you deliver it, by book or online. Now, you are saying the opposite. Do make up your mind!

If what you said earlier is what you meant, then the book and the website are the same things.

If software publishers do that, then kudos to them. I'm not saying that's the wrong way. At least, they give options to the consumer. Like WinRAR, for example.

But that's not the way Microsoft or other large software companies do things. At least not yet. They don't give away crippled/simpler versions of Microsoft Word, do they?

Originally Posted by wodenus

You're selling something for more than it cost you, right ? isn't that screwing people over ?

Nope. That's called making a living.

Originally Posted by wodenus

A small percentage do the right thing. A larger percentage are afraid of prosecution. I'd wager most people would buy original software only if it was cheaper than the pirated version (which it will never be.)

A small percentage? ROTFL!

Why don't we just throw everyone into jail first and weed out that small good percentage?

Your thinking, I'm sorry to say, is seriously flawed. Why?

If original software is cheaper than the pirated version, EVERYONE would buy original software, not most people.

Who in the right mind would buy the pirated version if the original version is cheaper? Illogical thinking, isn't it?

Nah, I will not only wager that more people will buy original software if it's significantly cheaper, I would even GUARANTEE that.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Well.. using pirated software for something that's always online is a little risky and you're in the minority anyway.

Err.. What has using pirated software for an online website got to do with anything?

How will Microsoft or other companies know? Think about it.

We can do whatever we want on our server. No one will know. Why should we support original software? Think about that.

Minority? That's generalizing. Show me the numbers that back up your opinions for once.

Originally Posted by wodenus

That's only a conjecture

If it's a conjecture, it's based on calculated analysis of the situation.

And like I said earlier, we cannot always calculate success in the amount of money generated in a certain period of time. There are other benefits that cannot be so readily gauged.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Not all industries have heavy or effective competition. And it's not as if Windows doesn't have competition. It's just that they're the best at what the do (humanizing the OS for x86.) No one's stopping anyone from competing with them. It's really not their fault that they have little competition

Most industry have effective competition. Only in situations like our telecommunications industry, our car industry or the software industry, do you see lack of viable competition.

Windows is the best at