The Pirated Software Discussion Thread!

[wodenus]

This was originally a longer reply.. but I have no time now, so I'll hafta cut it short

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Err.. Facts?

The fact is P2P software is incredibly popular and easy to use. That's why there are so many people using it, from the very young to the very old.

If you want a stamp of guarantee on the ease of use and popularity of P2P software, try asking the RIAA.

If you want to know how dangerous download sites are, you can ask papercut

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Err.. Earlier you told me to use an inkjet, now it's a laser printer.

yea, yea.. big difference

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Okay, the laser printer prints at 5 sen a page. Each page cost 3 sen, for example. Let's add in the cost of electricity at 2 sen a page.

You sure electricity costs two sen per page.. what do you base this on ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Err.. One minute you say that content is content and it doesn't matter how you deliver it, by book or online. Now, you are saying the opposite. Do make up your mind!

Content is still content. Doesn't change the fact that the website and the book have mostly different content.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

But that's not the way Microsoft or other large software companies do things. At least not yet. They don't give away crippled/simpler versions of Microsoft Word, do they?

They tried once.. remember Microsoft Works ? didn't make a dent, so they stopped it. So don't say they haven't tried, they have. It didn't work.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Nope. That's called making a living.

That's right.. making a living by screwing people over. you're using advertising and marketing to create desire, and then filling that desire by selling the product. You're talking advantage of the fact that people lack information by selling it to them. You're capitalizing on their weaknesses. If that's not screwing people over, I don't know what is

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

A small percentage? ROTFL!

Why don't we just throw everyone into jail first and weed out that small good percentage?

Because there's this fair trial thing.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

If original software is cheaper than the pirated version, EVERYONE would buy original software, not most people.

Not true. Some people would still buy pirated versions (especially if both were essentially the same) for whatever reasons (for instance if they wanted to support piracy.)

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Who in the right mind would buy the pirated version if the original version is cheaper? Illogical thinking, isn't it?

Not necessarily.. people do things for all sorts of reasons. There's nothing that says people have to be logical. Infact, humans can be very illogical at times

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Nah, I will not only wager that more people will buy original software if it's significantly cheaper, I would even GUARANTEE that.

I can guarantee that too.. but the question is HOW MANY ? enough to offset the price drop ? I don't think so. MS tried with MS Works.. didn't work.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

We can do whatever we want on our server. No one will know.

How sure are you that no one will know ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Minority? That's generalizing. Show me the numbers that back up your opinions for once.

As soon as you show me yours

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

If it's a conjecture, it's based on calculated analysis of the situation.

It's still a conjecture.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

And like I said earlier, we cannot always calculate success in the amount of money generated in a certain period of time. There are other benefits that cannot be so readily gauged.

How do you spend the other benefits then ? Even if it's a flop, if it makes a large amount of money, that can be used to create a better product. If it sells well and makes almost no money.. how would the company even survive ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Most industry have effective competition. Only in situations like our telecommunications industry, our car industry or the software industry, do you see lack of viable competition.

I see you've stopped using "monopoly" It's just as well. The lack of "viable" competition in the software industry (if indeed there is one) isn't anyone's fault.. it's not as if there are controls or anything.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Windows is the best at humanizing the OS for x86? Sorry, but I think that honour should go to the Macintosh. Windows is the only choice for most x86 users because we are all so used to it. Everyone uses it.

Don't know what you're talking about. The Mac OS will NOT work on any x86 PC without emulation. And that is a fact.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

In situations where there is no effective competition, prices get inflated. It's only natural. Therefore, the company SHOULD balance profit against social obligations. If it doesn't, well, people find a way, won't they? Like it or not, the laws of physics apply even in this situation. Dominant companies can do what they like, but nothing can stop everyone else from pushing back until there is an equilibrium.

Are you saying people will just take stuff if they think the price is too high ? doesn't that prove that people are just evil at heart ? companies exist to make money. I've not seen a company that exercises any sort of social obligation (except as a PR exercise.)

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Try asking Maxis or Celcom.

That's just a fancy way of saying "I don't know" isn't it ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Telekom Malaysia is not a monopoly? What does Telekom Malaysia's exclusive ownership of the last mile and external communications imply? Free market? ROTFL! Ask yourself then why no other companies seem to be able to acquire the license to provide the last mile access or communications to other countries.

I still have no proof of this "exclusive ownership" thing. If they actually had this, Maxis, Time and Celcom would have been extinct a long time ago. doesn't Maxis do last-mile ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

You don't have to do that. You can just walk off or buy something else. That's the difference.

You can do that with software as well. How is that different ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Besides, the shopkeeper just sells goods. He doesn't make them or dictate the price level. And he has plenty of competition to ensure he doesn't inflate prices.

He dictates the level in a way by setting his selling price. You're just assuming he has plenty of competition.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

If software pirates are greedy, then why do they distribute pirated copies of software for free?

They do ? where ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Even if you buy pirated CDs, why do they bother selling them for prices as low as RM 3 (USD 0.79) when they can sell them for 10X as much and still remain a LOT cheaper than original software? Is that really greed?

Yes that is. They make a HUGE profit from it.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

BTW, I have never heard of book piracy. What's that?

Do you mean plagiarism? I think that's a totally different topic altogether.

Piracy = illegal duplication. Perpetrator does not normally claim ownership of duplicated article. For instance, if you photocopy a book, it's pirated. The original author credit ("by so and so") is still intact.

Plagiarism = illegal duplication. Credit is claimed or not acknowledged (For instance if you change the book's credit to "by (insert name here)". Or if you write a paper and not include your references. Or if you modify software just to change the "credit" lines.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Video piracy? IMHO, the cost of video DVD/CDs are a sign of greed. Video studios have a choice of lowering prices to make videos more affordable but like the software industry, they refuse to compromise.

I think prices are already fair. It's not as if anyone's being forced to buy the product. If you want the price to drop, then stop buying it.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Look at the prices of video CDs versus DVDs. The price of manufacturing both is almost similar. The difference is probably a dollar or so at most. But the retail prices of DVDs are inflated beyond that of video CDs.

That's because there's more content on the DVD than on the VCD.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Would a well-adjusted human being not balk at the high price of DVDs? You can get an original video CD (two CDs) for RM 16.90 (USD 4.44) but an original DVD costs over RM 120 (USD 31.58).

That isn't necessarily the case. Lots of cheap original DVDs here in KL

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

If the cost price of a single DVD is actually less than TWO CDs (in a video CD movie), why are they charging so much more? After all, in your own opinion, the content is the same.

Where did I say the content was the same ?


Actually, there are many facts. You just choose to ignore them, even those based on common sense.


As a med student? What has me being a med student got to do with anything?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Most people will copy stuff it was easy to do so? Well, look at the online community. Bloody easy to copy stuff and call them your own. But MOST people still refrain from doing so. That's a FACT.

It's also a "fact" that most stuff on the net is not worth copying

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Nope. OEMs ARE getting massive discounts on Windows XP. But not ordinary people buying Windows XP or other software.

OEMs are getting the huge super-massive discounts because they buy in volume. Ordinary people are just getting the plain-vanilla massive discounts because they don't buy as much.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Well, look at the numbers yourself. If it's a devious crime that everyone abhors, yes, prosecuting someone will get the message across.

But the problem is MOST people already think the current situation to be deplorable. And litigating people will only raise the public's ire towards "large, faceless corporations" with nothing but profit in their eyes.

Well.. what else do you want them to do ? they've already tried alternative editions.. that didn't work.Incidentally, I didn't see any numbers.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

That's why, when it comes to piracy, the pirates will always remain Robin Hoods to the people.. until and unless the software industry changes their mindset.

They tried. Didn't work.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Oh really? Then software companies are doing a piss-poor job of informing consumers of just how much effort went into their software.

This is true. People don't appreciate the humongous effort that goes into making good software. Gmae companies have realized that, and are now putting out "making of.." articles that give you an idea of the costs and effort involved.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Stop blaming the consumers. Software companies have a bad habit of just saying, "I spent XX million dollars on creating this software so you better pay me XXXXX dollars a copy or else".

Or else what ? you'll use something else ? how is that different from any other product ? no one's _forcing_ them to use any product.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Even someone will a little gray matter will ask the question, "How the heck did you come up with XX million dollars?" and "If I pay XXXXX dollars a copy and you sell XXXXX copies, why, wouldn't you get profits of 1000X more than your cost? Why, isn't that highway robbery?"

Isn't that an exaggeration ? I hardly think they make 1000% profit

[Adrian Wong]

Originally Posted by wodenus

I'm close to giving up on this stupid forum software. I mean, I spent _two hours_ typing stuff.. and then it said I had to log in (even though I already did.) And then it said the thread was "invalid". Talk about waste of time. And for some stupid reason it jumps to the middle of the page every time I post something. And then when I try to scroll up it jumps back down again. And it is SLOW. And the c&p just doesn't work sometimes

And for some stupid reason, before the page loads, the text box jumps left and right and there's not edit or delete option in some sections.

If it wasn't for the nice people, I wouldn't be here. But this is sorely testing my patience

That's odd. How come I don't experience anything like that?? Anyone else with the same problem?

As for getting logged out, well, we set the cookie to only 1 hour. That's plenty of time for you to reply actually.

FYI, this is the forum software used by all the big hardware sites. Like a lot of things in ARP, we do not scrimp on our community members.

[siddiq]

haha. so much discussion. do pirate stuff cos much damage to a company? if only 20%. its nothing.

[Adrian Wong]

Originally Posted by wodenus

If you want to know how dangerous download sites are, you can ask papercut

Err.. Why would I need to ask Papercut? I have downloaded plenty of stuff before. Never been hit by a virus or trojan.

Neither have my cousins or brothers (all avid downloaders) been hit by anything of this sort.

Like I said, if you have a little common sense, viruses and trojans won't be that big of a problem. But if one insists on being a Chicken Little, then nothing will convince the person that the sky isn't going to fall on our heads.

Originally Posted by wodenus

yea, yea.. big difference

It IS a big difference.

Inkjets cost a lot more to print each page. Please don't tell me you didn't know that.

Originally Posted by wodenus

You sure electricity costs two sen per page.. what do you base this on ?

Consider that as the cost of running the printer as well as the cost of the printer divided by the number of pages.

Try doing your own calculations for once.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Content is still content. Doesn't change the fact that the website and the book have mostly different content.

Ahh.. content is still content. You said it.

So, what's your point? You are just circling around, rebutting for the sake of rebutting, with no point whatsoever.

Originally Posted by wodenus

They tried once.. remember Microsoft Works ? didn't make a dent, so they stopped it. So don't say they haven't tried, they have. It didn't work.

Oh, for God's sake, Microsoft Works is not a simplified version of Microsoft Word. I know they both start with the letter W but no, they are NOT the same.

Heck, the documents don't even use the same file format!

And BTW, they didn't give Works out for free. If you have to pay for something, why the heck would you want to pay for something that crippled?

Originally Posted by wodenus

That's right.. making a living by screwing people over. you're using advertising and marketing to create desire, and then filling that desire by selling the product. You're talking advantage of the fact that people lack information by selling it to them. You're capitalizing on their weaknesses. If that's not screwing people over, I don't know what is

Woah.. Now, that's low, man..

Maybe that's what you do, but that's not what I'm doing. So, please do not use the word "you" quite so liberally.

Unlike your business model, I have not only provided a book for people who can afford to purchase, I have also provided a free online version of the book for those who cannot afford. There is a CHOICE, if you still fail to notice.

In addition, I have fought contractually for the upcoming e-book version of the guide to be significantly cheaper than the printed book. If I wanted to screw people over, I wouldn't be giving them choices.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Because there's this fair trial thing.

Agreed! For the same reason, BE FAIR to everyone. Do not judge them GUILTY just because you have such a low opinion of your fellow human beings.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Not true. Some people would still buy pirated versions (especially if both were essentially the same) for whatever reasons (for instance if they wanted to support piracy.)

And where did you get this "fact" from? LOL!!

I really don't know what to say. This is so funny!

Okay, let me put it in ANOTHER way.

If people can buy original DVDs for less than pirated DVDs, you actually think people would still buy pirated DVDs because they want to support piracy?

Originally Posted by wodenus

Not necessarily.. people do things for all sorts of reasons. There's nothing that says people have to be logical. Infact, humans can be very illogical at times

Yeah, I can tell. Based on this thread, I cannot disagree.

Originally Posted by wodenus

I can guarantee that too.. but the question is HOW MANY ? enough to offset the price drop ? I don't think so. MS tried with MS Works.. didn't work.

MS Works? LOL! That's a laugh. MS Works is a lite-version of Word with a different file format, etc. and you want people to consider it as a cheaper version of Word? You gotta be kidding me.

And you are evidently not reading what I wrote. When I said, "Sell Windows XP and other applications at a lower price", I meant selling the SAME application as they are selling now but at a lower price.

Originally Posted by wodenus

How sure are you that no one will know ?

Let me put it back to you. How sure are you that someone will know?

Originally Posted by wodenus

As soon as you show me yours

Which, in other words, means you have nothing at all. What a shame.. I thought better of you.

Originally Posted by wodenus

It's still a conjecture.

IF it is, at least it's a logical conjecture.

Originally Posted by wodenus

How do you spend the other benefits then ? Even if it's a flop, if it makes a large amount of money, that can be used to create a better product. If it sells well and makes almost no money.. how would the company even survive ?

Like I said, if you do not change your thinking from dollars and cents in a certain period of time, then you will never figure it out. Evidently, you cannot see beyond the profit per copy.

If it's a flop and the company fails, it's the consumer's fault, is it?

Originally Posted by wodenus

I see you've stopped using "monopoly" It's just as well. The lack of "viable" competition in the software industry (if indeed there is one) isn't anyone's fault.. it's not as if there are controls or anything.

Nope. It's still a monopoly. Because there is a lack of viable competition, it IS a monopoly. Not only I think so. The US Justice Department as well as EU thinks the same.

There are. One of them is called anti-trust and Microsoft has been fined a few times over this. If you want more info, do a little reading - http://www.antitrust.org/

Originally Posted by wodenus

Are you saying people will just take stuff if they think the price is too high ? doesn't that prove that people are just evil at heart ? companies exist to make money. I've not seen a company that exercises any sort of social obligation (except as a PR exercise.)

Nope. That's what YOU are saying.

No, it doesn't prove that people are just evil at heart. It proves we are not as stupid as you think we are.

Originally Posted by wodenus

That's just a fancy way of saying "I don't know" isn't it ?

Nope. That's a discreet way of saying, please go read up on it yourself. Don't wait to be spoonfed.

Originally Posted by wodenus

I still have no proof of this "exclusive ownership" thing. If they actually had this, Maxis, Time and Celcom would have been extinct a long time ago. doesn't Maxis do last-mile ?

Again, go read up on it yourself. If we have all read up on it before commenting, why can't you?

Originally Posted by wodenus

You can do that with software as well. How is that different ?

Like I said, most products have lots of competition. That keeps prices down.

Certain software also face viable competition. But not ALL. Some software have virtual monopoly in the market that their price is not dictated by market forces but how much the company wants to make.

That's the difference.

Originally Posted by wodenus

He dictates the level in a way by setting his selling price. You're just assuming he has plenty of competition.

Nope. Open your eyes. Plenty of shops around. Want to buy hardware? Go to Low Yat Plaza. Look at the competition there. THAT'S competition.

Originally Posted by wodenus

They do ? where ?

Where else? Try the IRC channels or any P2P software.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Yes that is. They make a HUGE profit from it.

And if they make a HUGE profit from selling CDs at RM 3, just how much will they make from original software, I wonder...

Originally Posted by wodenus

I think prices are already fair. It's not as if anyone's being forced to buy the product. If you want the price to drop, then stop buying it.

If you say so.

Evidently, most people don't think so. Otherwise, we wouldn't be discussing this, would we?

I think the first thing you have to admit is that people generally think that the price of certain software are grossly inflated.

Originally Posted by wodenus

That's because there's more content on the DVD than on the VCD.

So, deleted scenes and commentary are worth more than the actual movie.. I see.

Originally Posted by wodenus

That isn't necessarily the case. Lots of cheap original DVDs here in KL

How cheap, pray tell me.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Where did I say the content was the same ?

Look at your own reply. I quoted you above too. You said, content is content.

Originally Posted by wodenus

It's also a "fact" that most stuff on the net is not worth copying

But you will agree that SOME stuff are worth copying, right?

Then why isn't anyone copying them?

Originally Posted by wodenus

OEMs are getting the huge super-massive discounts because they buy in volume. Ordinary people are just getting the plain-vanilla massive discounts because they don't buy as much.

Plain-vanilla discounts? LOL! Where? What discounts?

BTW, OEM discounted software is not limited to large OEMs. You can get OEM versions if you are a reseller. Yes, you can even buy a SINGLE OEM copy. So, you are NOT entirely correct in saying that.

So, the question is if they can provide discounts for resellers, why not for students and retirees?

Originally Posted by wodenus

Well.. what else do you want them to do ? they've already tried alternative editions.. that didn't work.Incidentally, I didn't see any numbers.

Alternative editions? They work if you give them away for free. Look at WinRAR. They gave a slightly crippled version away for free. And they are still alive and well today.

Originally Posted by wodenus

They tried. Didn't work.

Really? How do you know?

Originally Posted by wodenus

Or else what ? you'll use something else ? how is that different from any other product ? no one's _forcing_ them to use any product.

Or else? Oh, let's try Microsoft's method. We will just stop supporting the older version. How's that?

Originally Posted by wodenus

Isn't that an exaggeration ? I hardly think they make 1000% profit

Like you don't exaggerate?

That's to illustrate TWO points.

1. If software companies can come up with arbitrary cost figures, so can consumers.

2. Instead of looking to profit as much from a single copy, it's actually more important to profit more overall.

[Papercut]

1 trojan. O-N-E. One. In the entire time I've used the Internet, I have downloaded ONE trojan. Don't make such a big deal out of it, especially since you can't figure out how to use the forum properly and we were discussing P2P, not download sites. I would like to have a mature and sensible discussion with you here, but I don't take s**t lying down. If you take a swing at me, I'm going to give one right back to you.

[Chai]

Honestly, I think there are WAY WAY more trojan from emails then downloading from P2Ps or websites.

[wodenus]

Originally Posted by Papercut

1 trojan. O-N-E. One. In the entire time I've used the Internet, I have downloaded ONE trojan. Don't make such a big deal out of it, especially since you can't figure out how to use the forum properly and we were discussing P2P, not download sites. I would like to have a mature and sensible discussion with you here, but I don't take s**t lying down. If you take a swing at me, I'm going to give one right back to you.

Fair enough. That's one more than yon little girl.

[wodenus]

Originally Posted by Chai

Honestly, I think there are WAY WAY more trojan from emails then downloading from P2Ps or websites.

Probably true.. but email trojans are sent to you. P2P and download websites are downloaded and run voluntarily. The volume of trojans in email is higher, but most of the email-borne trojans are stopped because they're not wanted and not run. If you download something from a P2P or download website, you're almost certain to run it. So I think the infection rate (percentage wise) is higher for trojans downloaded from P2P and download sites, although the actual volume may be lower.

[wodenus]

Originally Posted by Papercut

HAHAHAHA! The point is that if small-time developers charged high prices, nobody would buy their software! It's as simple as that (unless you absolutely need their software or it was developed specially for you).

Right. So they charge what they can get away with, correct ?

Originally Posted by Papercut

Simply reporting it in the news doesn't make it effective. What they were trying to do was to scare people away from sharing MP3s via Kazaa, LimeWire, etc. Some people did get scared and stopped sharing/downloading MP3s for a while, but after that what did the users do? Switch to another P2P network, of course. And everything is almost back to normal now. Everything that you could have found on P2P before the lawsuits is still available for download today. That's undeniable evidence that what the RIAA did wasn't effective. And as someone who doesn't download MP3s, I don't think you are in any position to argue with me about this.

Why would I have to download anything to be able to argue with someone ? how do you know everything is "back to normal" ?

[Adrian Wong]

Originally Posted by wodenus

Probably true.. but email trojans are sent to you. P2P and download websites are downloaded and run voluntarily. The volume of trojans in email is higher, but most of the email-borne trojans are stopped because they're not wanted and not run. If you download something from a P2P or download website, you're almost certain to run it. So I think the infection rate (percentage wise) is higher for trojans downloaded from P2P and download sites, although the actual volume may be lower.

Huh.. What kind of data did you base your assumption on?

Right now, all the hoo-haa over trojans and viruses are because of the spread via e-mail. That's what got many people infected, not via the P2P network.

How do you infect an MPEG file? Or an AVI file?