The Pirated Software Discussion Thread!

[wodenus]

Originally Posted by Papercut

I'm just trying to prove the point that P2P networks are safe to use, and you have no evidence to prove otherwise. Don't try to stir anything else up.

Er.. that wasn't the point.. the point was that books are not vulnerable to bug exploits. So you have to have a way to fix bugs easily and securely, and that adds to the expense.

Originally Posted by Papercut

Don't make sweeping assumptions if you don't have any evidence to back it up.

What exactly is a sweeping assumption ?

Originally Posted by Papercut

Would you like to do an Internet survey and ask people their opinions? Whether they would buy the original software if it was cheaper? I'm certain you will find that a very significant percentage of them will. As Chai pointed out, there are the benefits of original software which will sway people's decisions, such as instruction manuals and tech support. Essentially you would also be appealing to the people who have a CONSCIENCE - those who buy pirated software knowing that it's wrong, but do so because the original is just too expensive. By lowering the price of original software, they will buy the original and have peace of mind knowing that their software is perfectly legal.

Okay.. say I lower a sofftware's price by RM50. Would you buy it ? I don't get it anyway.. if it's expensive, don't buy it.

Originally Posted by Papercut

That's simply not true. Ordinarily, the customer ALWAYS comes first. Producers spend huge amounts of time and money studying consumer behaviour and then evaluating how much revenue they can earn at a specific price, and/or then look at their competition to see what kind of prices they are charging. Microsoft is the exception; they have a monopoly which allows them to pretty much do whatever they want (for the time being). Look at any other consumer product that you buy; if one particular brand was expensive, you would buy another brand that is cheaper. But in this case, there are no alternatives.

Er.. hold on. Do you work ? in a company ? if companies put customers first, they'd have to be giving stuff away for free cos there are customers who will want it for free and they don't have a monopoly.. if they did open source OSes would not exist. And open source OSes _are_ an alternative.

[Falcone]

Originally Posted by wodenus

Right. So they charge what they can get away with, correct ?

Well, yes.....and no, u can always NOT BUY!

Originally Posted by wodenus

Why would I have to download anything to be able to argue with someone ? how do you know everything is "back to normal" ?

I may not be downloading MP3s but I'm really active in P2P, oh BELIEVE ME is back to normal........

[Adrian Wong]

Originally Posted by wodenus

Why would I have to download anything to be able to argue with someone ? how do you know everything is "back to normal" ?

If you don't even try it out, then what gives you the right or even the minimum knowledge you need to even comment on it?

How do you know everything is not back to normal when you claim never to have tried P2P software?

But honestly, that comment shows that you do not actually know how P2P networks work. The content in P2P network depends on its users sharing files with everyone on the network.

How do we know it's back to normal? Simple. Load up your P2P software. Compare the amount of material now and before. Compare the number of users now and before.

If you have not even tried it out, I seriously have no idea why we even need to bother arguing with you over this.

[Adrian Wong]

Originally Posted by wodenus

Er.. that wasn't the point.. the point was that books are not vulnerable to bug exploits. So you have to have a way to fix bugs easily and securely, and that adds to the expense.

Err.. Just because books don't get viruses or trojans, they don't have mistakes. Every book is sure to have printing and editing mistakes.

Even the BOG book. I have to read through it and mark them out. Then the publisher has to redo the affected plates. That's not cheap. That's why they do it ONLY if there are many mistakes or significant mistakes that must be corrected.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Okay.. say I lower a sofftware's price by RM50. Would you buy it ? I don't get it anyway.. if it's expensive, don't buy it.

It's not so much about lowering price a little. Software companies should find out what's a decent price point and market it at that.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Er.. hold on. Do you work ? in a company ? if companies put customers first, they'd have to be giving stuff away for free cos there are customers who will want it for free and they don't have a monopoly.. if they did open source OSes would not exist. And open source OSes _are_ an alternative.

Evidently, you have not worked in a service industry before. Still, that kind of thinking that to put customers first means nothing less than giving stuff away for free is really flawed.

And yes, they do have a monopoly. The US Justice Department and the EU already declared that Microsoft has a monopoly on the x86 operating system market. Open source OS are not that mainstream yet and do not command any significant market share.

[Falcone]

Originally Posted by wodenus

Okay.. say I lower a sofftware's price by RM50. Would you buy it ? I don't get it anyway.. if it's expensive, don't buy it.

When i first came here to UK, i refrained myself from buying anything at all. Cause I'm burning RM, but now I've part time job and I'm buying some of my favourite DVDs knowing that I'll probably get it much cheaper for pirrate ones when i get back. Mainly because earning in pounds now makes it seems more resonable priced now, my point is lowering say Windows XP by RM50 would encourage more people to buy original, because as long as consumer sees it as reasoanbly priced they will buy it, I know I will.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Er.. hold on. Do you work ? in a company ? if companies put customers first, they'd have to be giving stuff away for free cos there are customers who will want it for free and they don't have a monopoly.. if they did open source OSes would not exist. And open source OSes _are_ an alternative.

Hmmmmn.....seems like u r the one who have never work in a company before, most companies' (well ok there r crooked companies out there) policy are customer satisfaction, this thus keeps the customer from leaving and attrcts more potential customers. Customers who wants it for free ARE NOT CUSTOMERS, would u want to work for free?

[Papercut]

Originally Posted by wodenus

Er.. that wasn't the point.. the point was that books are not vulnerable to bug exploits. So you have to have a way to fix bugs easily and securely, and that adds to the expense.

That part was between you and Adrian. I don't care.
The point I am addressing is that you said using P2P to distribute software creates the risk of being infected by trojans and viruses. Or are you just trying to avoid that argument now because you know you're wrong about it?

Originally Posted by wodenus

What exactly is a sweeping assumption ?

A sweeping assumption is a generalisation that someone makes which puts every single person in question into one category, and assuming that what holds true for one person will hold true for all. This is what I'm referring to:

Originally Posted by wodenus

You will not encourage anything with lower prices. I don't think less people will use pirated copies. People will always look for the lowest price.

Not everyone will behave according to the way you think they will. In fact, it's quite safe to say that the majority won't.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Okay.. say I lower a sofftware's price by RM50. Would you buy it ? I don't get it anyway.. if it's expensive, don't buy it.

If the original prices was RM100, then yes I would. You should learn to put things into perspective. Furthermore, we're not talking about small percentage decreases in price.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Er.. hold on. Do you work ? in a company ? if companies put customers first, they'd have to be giving stuff away for free cos there are customers who will want it for free and they don't have a monopoly.. if they did open source OSes would not exist. And open source OSes _are_ an alternative.

All right then, do YOU work in a company? Do you realise that the underlying objective of any commercial company is to make a profit? Please explain to me how companies are going to make a profit if they give their products away for free. (unless it's during the introductory stage of a product when they are trying to stimulate demand for it) This is the way that the retail process works: consumers want a better product for a lower price, but companies want to sell a lesser product at a higher price. What happens then is a compromise between the two extremes, and everyone is happy.

Indeed, open source OSes are an alternative. But in terms of functionality and ease of use for the average user, and availability of support, they still have a fair distance to go before they can seriously compete with Windows.

[wodenus]

LOL.. this is fun

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Err.. Why would I need to ask Papercut? I have downloaded plenty of stuff before. Never been hit by a virus or trojan.

Neither have my cousins or brothers (all avid downloaders) been hit by anything of this sort.

Like I said, if you have a little common sense, viruses and trojans won't be that big of a problem. But if one insists on being a Chicken Little, then nothing will convince the person that the sky isn't going to fall on our heads.

If we're quoting people here.. Voltaire was reputed to have said "common sense is not so common"

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

It IS a big difference.

Inkjets cost a lot more to print each page. Please don't tell me you didn't know that.

no proof again ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Consider that as the cost of running the printer as well as the cost of the printer divided by the number of pages.

Try doing your own calculations for once.

Right..you make the allegations, but I have to do the calculations ? I have proved all calculations I've made

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Ahh.. content is still content. You said it.

Would you mind at least quoting it ? I don't want to trawl through all the replies trying to figure out where I said that, and what the context was.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

So, what's your point? You are just circling around, rebutting for the sake of rebutting, with no point whatsoever.

Aren't you doing the same thing ? what was yours again ? let's get backt o the original point.. what was it again ?

Woah.. Now, that's low, man..

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Maybe that's what you do, but that's not what I'm doing. So, please do not use the word "you" quite so liberally.

What're all the ads for then ? and there are A LOT of them on the site

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Unlike your business model, I have not only provided a book for people who can afford to purchase, I have also provided a free online version of the book for those who cannot afford. There is a CHOICE, if you still fail to notice.

Yeah.. well.. software users have choices too. Pay or use open source. That's a choice too.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

In addition, I have fought contractually for the upcoming e-book version of the guide to be significantly cheaper than the printed book. If I wanted to screw people over, I wouldn't be giving them choices.

Um.. isn't that because you want to sell to the people who can't afford the print version ? it's a sound business decision... you make more money by givng everyone differently-priced choices

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Agreed! For the same reason, BE FAIR to everyone. Do not judge them GUILTY just because you have such a low opinion of your fellow human beings.

As soon as you quit judging companies guilty of overpricing (is there even such a thing ? )

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

And where did you get this "fact" from? LOL!!

I really don't know what to say. This is so funny!

Okay, let me put it in ANOTHER way.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

If people can buy original DVDs for less than pirated DVDs, you actually think people would still buy pirated DVDs because they want to support piracy?

You don't think so ? why not ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Yeah, I can tell. Based on this thread, I cannot disagree.

you're not kidding

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

And you are evidently not reading what I wrote. When I said, "Sell Windows XP and other applications at a lower price", I meant selling the SAME application as they are selling now but at a lower price.

It's already quite low.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Let me put it back to you. How sure are you that someone will know?

Well. there are logs. And various tracking mechanisms

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Which, in other words, means you have nothing at all. What a shame.. I thought better of you.

You realize this means that we both know nothing ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

IF it is, at least it's a logical conjecture.

It's STILL a conjecture

Like I said, if you do not change your thinking from dollars and cents in a certain period of time, then you will never figure it out. Evidently, you cannot see beyond the profit per copy.

If it's a flop and the company fails, it's the consumer's fault, is it?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Nope. It's still a monopoly. Because there is a lack of viable competition, it IS a monopoly. Not only I think so. The US Justice Department as well as EU thinks the same.

From http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=monopoly :

Main Entry: mo·nop·o·ly
Pronunciation: m&-'nä-p(&-)lE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -lies
Etymology: Latin monopolium, from Greek monopOlion, from mon- + pOlein to sell
1 : exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action
2 : exclusive possession or control
3 : a commodity controlled by one party
4 : one that has a monopoly

Which one is MS ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

There are. One of them is called anti-trust and Microsoft has been fined a few times over this. If you want more info, do a little reading - http://www.antitrust.org/

From that page :

"Ronald [Coase] said he had gotten tired of antitrust because when the prices went up the judges said it was monopoly, when the prices went down they said it was predatory pricing, and when they stayed the same they said it was tacit collusion."

--William Landes, "The Fire of Truth: A Remembrance of Law and Econ at Chicago", JLE (1981) p. 193.

Seems to me that they just want to nail MS for something

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

No, it doesn't prove that people are just evil at heart. It proves we are not as stupid as you think we are.

Taking stuff because it's too expensive is a sign of intelligence ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Nope. That's a discreet way of saying, please go read up on it yourself. Don't wait to be spoonfed.

Yes it is. You just don't know, otherwise you'd have told me

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Again, go read up on it yourself. If we have all read up on it before commenting, why can't you?

If you'd actually read it, you can tell me


Like I said, most products have lots of competition. That keeps prices down.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Certain software also face viable competition. But not ALL. Some software have virtual monopoly in the market that their price is not dictated by market forces but how much the company wants to make.

I can't see any software where the price is not dictated by market forces. No one forces anyone to buy software.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Nope. Open your eyes. Plenty of shops around. Want to buy hardware? Go to Low Yat Plaza. Look at the competition there. THAT'S competition.

Right.. different companies price the same item differently. This means they dictate the prices for their own goods.

Where else? Try the IRC channels or any P2P software.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

And if they make a HUGE profit from selling CDs at RM 3, just how much will they make from original software, I wonder...

Not as much, percentage-wise.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Evidently, most people don't think so. Otherwise, we wouldn't be discussing this, would we?

Yeah they don't. But I think it's pretty fair, considering. Maybe they weren't around when software that did a lot less cost a lot more

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

I think the first thing you have to admit is that people generally think that the price of certain software are grossly inflated.

They do. I'm not sure why that is. I really don't think there's a basis for that. I mean, yes they're making a profit. But it's not as if no one else is. How can anyone say "you're making too much profit" ? if they think so, why can't they just not buy it ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

So, deleted scenes and commentary are worth more than the actual movie.. I see.

Er.. the DVD contains the movie too, in case you haven't noticed and there's a lot more than just deleted scenes and commentary

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

How cheap, pray tell me.

RM10-20.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Look at your own reply. I quoted you above too. You said, content is content.

"Content is content" means the same content is the same whatever media you use.. the content stays the same. I didn't mean all content were the same

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

But you will agree that SOME stuff are worth copying, right?

Then why isn't anyone copying them?

Whatever is worth copying is probably being copied already

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Plain-vanilla discounts? LOL! Where? What discounts?

That was a joke. I mean the price is pretty fair already

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

BTW, OEM discounted software is not limited to large OEMs. You can get OEM versions if you are a reseller. Yes, you can even buy a SINGLE OEM copy. So, you are NOT entirely correct in saying that.

Have you actually called MS and asked to order a single OEM copy ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

So, the question is if they can provide discounts for resellers, why not for students and retirees?

Because they don't buy in bulk.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Alternative editions? They work if you give them away for free. Look at WinRAR. They gave a slightly crippled version away for free. And they are still alive and well today.

So is MS. And it's way bigger

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Or else? Oh, let's try Microsoft's method. We will just stop supporting the older version. How's that?

If you don't like that, you can use some other OS.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Like you don't exaggerate?

I don't remember any exaggerations.. can you quote one ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

2. Instead of looking to profit as much from a single copy, it's actually more important to profit more overall.

The main question is this. How low do you have to lower it before people will buy ? different people have different perceptions as to how much software _should_ cost. And you'll have to agree that a lot of people don't understand the time, effort and expense required, so they underestimate the cost. Where is the magic number ? if they lower it, will ENOUGH people buy to offset the cost ?

PS. What about Office S/T Ed ? it's really cheap compared to standard Office. How many people are buying that ?

[wodenus]

Originally Posted by Falcone

Well, yes.....and no, u can always NOT BUY!

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Falcone

I may not be downloading MP3s but I'm really active in P2P, oh BELIEVE ME is back to normal........

I'm supposed to take your word for it ? believe me it's not, then

[wodenus]

[quote=Adrian Wong]Err.. Just because books don't get viruses or trojans, they don't have mistakes. Every book is sure to have printing and editing mistakes.

Even the BOG book. I have to read through it and mark them out. Then the publisher has to redo the affected plates. That's not cheap. That's why they do it ONLY if there are many mistakes or significant mistakes that must be corrected.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

It's not so much about lowering price a little. Software companies should find out what's a decent price point and market it at that.

I think it's at a decent price point now.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Evidently, you have not worked in a service industry before. Still, that kind of thinking that to put customers first means nothing less than giving stuff away for free is really flawed.

Why do you think that ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

And yes, they do have a monopoly. The US Justice Department and the EU already declared that Microsoft has a monopoly on the x86 operating system market. Open source OS are not that mainstream yet and do not command any significant market share.

Actually even the judges can't decide whether or not it's a monopoly. According to antitrust.org :

"Ronald [Coase] said he had gotten tired of antitrust because when the prices went up the judges said it was monopoly, when the prices went down they said it was predatory pricing, and when they stayed the same they said it was tacit collusion."

--William Landes, "The Fire of Truth: A Remembrance of Law and Econ at Chicago", JLE (1981) p. 193.

[Falcone]

Originally Posted by wodenus

I'm supposed to take your word for it ? believe me it's not, then

Coming from a guy who do not use P2P often enuf.......very assuring.....

edited: Adrain has stated what I wanted to say, no point of repeating it