The Pirated Software Discussion Thread!

[wodenus]

Originally Posted by Papercut

That part was between you and Adrian. I don't care.
The point I am addressing is that you said using P2P to distribute software creates the risk of being infected by trojans and viruses. Or are you just trying to avoid that argument now because you know you're wrong about it?

Are you saying there's no risk ? it's possible to attach a trojan to a downloadable executable, isn't it ?

Originally Posted by Papercut

A sweeping assumption is a generalisation that someone makes which puts every single person in question into one category, and assuming that what holds true for one person will hold true for all. This is what I'm referring to:



Not everyone will behave according to the way you think they will. In fact, it's quite safe to say that the majority won't.

I don't remember posting that. Where did I post it ?

Originally Posted by Papercut

If the original prices was RM100, then yes I would. You should learn to put things into perspective. Furthermore, we're not talking about small percentage decreases in price.

Well they can't make large decreases in price because they need to have enough profit to survive

Originally Posted by Papercut

All right then, do YOU work in a company? Do you realise that the underlying objective of any commercial company is to make a profit? Please explain to me how companies are going to make a profit if they give their products away for free. (unless it's during the introductory stage of a product when they are trying to stimulate demand for it) This is the way that the retail process works: consumers want a better product for a lower price, but companies want to sell a lesser product at a higher price. What happens then is a compromise between the two extremes, and everyone is happy.

"Everyone" is happy ? isn't that a "sweeping assumption" ? but you're right.. what happens is a compromise between the two extremes, which should be the ideal selling price. As high as the customer can go, and as low as the seller can go. The underlying objective of a company is not only to make a profit, it's to make enough of a profit to stay alive and grow the company.

Originally Posted by Papercut

Indeed, open source OSes are an alternative. But in terms of functionality and ease of use for the average user, and availability of support, they still have a fair distance to go before they can seriously compete with Windows.

That's not anybody's fault. The point is that when people say "they have no choice" what they mean is "I can't be bothered to learn open source." The assertion that they have "no choice" is false. They have choices. They just don't want to take them.

[Falcone]

Originally Posted by wodenus

That's not anybody's fault. The point is that when people say "they have no choice" what they mean is "I can't be bothered to learn open source." The assertion that they have "no choice" is false. They have choices. They just don't want to take them.

I considered myself to be above average PC user, and it took me months before I'm even comfortable of using an open source OS like RED HAT (well used to be open source), can u imagine an average person using it? I've seen companies revert to open office only to revert back of MS office because it took to long for its staff to get aquainted with it, and most importantly it''s not widely used and file incompatiblity is a big issue. So is not as simple as "I can't be bothered to learn open source."

[Papercut]

Originally Posted by wodenus

What're all the ads for then ? and there are A LOT of them on the site

In the short time that I've been a member of ARP, Adrian has made it very clear to me that ARP is not a website that is run for profit, and the ads are merely there to cover the costs of running the site. You wouldn't want him to run this website at a loss, do you? Furthermore, he also said that they could have made even more money by allowing advertisers to use pop-ups, but he chose not to use pop-ups for the sake of his website's users. You can find all this in his interview under the Spotlight forum.

Originally Posted by wodenus

I can't see any software where the price is not dictated by market forces.

Strange...didn't you say earlier on that it's the developers who decide what price to charge?

Originally Posted by wodenus

Er.. every industry has the notion that "everyone should pay whatever they want or else". I mean, you never pay what you want to pay, you pay what the seller wants you to pay. It's not limited to the software industry

This was in post #98, in case you have trouble finding it.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Are you saying there's no risk ? it's possible to attach a trojan to a downloadable executable, isn't it ?

It's possible. I'm not saying there's no risk, but the fact that all of us P2P users here (and Adrian's relatives) have never got a trojan through P2P speaks for itself.

Originally Posted by wodenus

I don't remember posting that. Where did I post it ?

Post #98.
http://forums.rojakpot.com/showthrea...006#post149006
(Hope you won't have any problems with that link)

Originally Posted by wodenus

Well they can't make large decreases in price because they need to have enough profit to survive

Adrian already explained this in one of his earlier posts. When you decrease the price of a product, you increase the demand for it and this counteracts the effect of lowering the prices. Simple economic supply & demand principles.

Originally Posted by wodenus

"Everyone" is happy ? isn't that a "sweeping assumption" ? but you're right.. what happens is a compromise between the two extremes, which should be the ideal selling price. As high as the customer can go, and as low as the seller can go. The underlying objective of a company is not only to make a profit, it's to make enough of a profit to stay alive and grow the company.

So now you agree with me that companies actually have to charge a price in order to make a profit and grow? And they can't give products away for free? Oh.

Originally Posted by wodenus

That's not anybody's fault. The point is that when people say "they have no choice" what they mean is "I can't be bothered to learn open source." The assertion that they have "no choice" is false. They have choices. They just don't want to take them.

I never said it was anybody's fault. But I won't argue with what you've said there.

[wodenus]

Originally Posted by Falcone

I considered myself to be above average PC user, and it took me months before I'm even comfortable of using an open source OS like RED HAT (well used to be open source), can u imagine an average person using it? I've seen companies revert to open office only to revert back of MS office because it took to long for its staff to get aquainted with it, and most importantly it''s not widely used and file incompatiblity is a big issue. So is not as simple as "I can't be bothered to learn open source."

Fine. But it's still a choice.

[wodenus]

Originally Posted by Papercut

In the short time that I've been a member of ARP, Adrian has made it very clear to me that ARP is not a website that is run for profit, and the ads are merely there to cover the costs of running the site. You wouldn't want him to run this website at a loss, do you? Furthermore, he also said that they could have made even more money by allowing advertisers to use pop-ups, but he chose not to use pop-ups for the sake of his website's users. You can find all this in his interview under the Spotlight forum.



Strange...didn't you say earlier on that it's the developers who decide what price to charge?





This was in post #98, in case you have trouble finding it.

They decide what price to charge based on what the market will bear. It's not mutually exclusive.

Originally Posted by Papercut

Adrian already explained this in one of his earlier posts. When you decrease the price of a product, you increase the demand for it and this counteracts the effect of lowering the prices. Simple economic supply & demand principles.

It can't be that that simple. If it was, everyone would be selling for RM1 profit and still make money

Originally Posted by Papercut

So now you agree with me that companies actually have to charge a price in order to make a profit and grow? And they can't give products away for free? Oh.

That's what I've been saying all along. Adrian is the one that wants to give some software away free.

[Falcone]

Originally Posted by wodenus

Fine. But it's still a choice.

Now u r arguing for the sake of arguing.....everything in life has a choice like u have a choice to kill somebody or jump of a bridge (well maybe that's too much), or just leave everything behind dissapear (wish I could do that).

I've pointed out earlier there are other factors which has to be taken into consideration to ur theory of "I can't be bothered to learn open source." which was u point of arguement. Popularity is one, learning curve is another. But rite now u r diverting ur point to if there is a choice then it's a choice......regardless of watever factors or consequence......

Edited: some of ur post contradicts with ur own post, and u are going around in circles, like i said before u r arguing for the sake of arguing, I see no point of continuing this......

[PsYkHoTiK]

Originally Posted by wodenus

Main Entry: mo·nop·o·ly
Pronunciation: m&-'nä-p(&-)lE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -lies
Etymology: Latin monopolium, from Greek monopOlion, from mon- + pOlein to sell
1 : exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action
2 : exclusive possession or control
3 : a commodity controlled by one party
4 : one that has a monopoly

Which one is MS ?

It would be the second or third.

Please consider this as ur bedtime read.
http://www.lronhubbard.org/book/html/stl3.htm
Dictionary skills are very important u know. Its not a matter of looking up a word, but knowing which of the definitions best suit the usage.

The different ways that words are used

Microsoft has been the target of anti trust lawsuits numerous times (which is only enacted on companies that monopolize the market)
http://12.129.203.38/cgi-bin/diction...itrust&x=0&y=0

consisting of laws to protect trade and commerce from unlawful restraints and monopolies or unfair business practices

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,116951,00.asp
http://money.cnn.com/2003/05/29/technology/microsoft/
http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/26266/
The only reason why nothing has happened to them is because they're immensley wealthy. How did they get so much money? By monopolizing of course...

Originally Posted by wodenus

That's what I've been saying all along. Adrian is the one that wants to give some software away free.

We're telling you that it is being given for free to students in some places... Its an investment. Why? So that they will use it when they work...

[PsYkHoTiK]

Originally Posted by Falcone

Edited: some of ur post contradicts with ur own post, and u are going around in circles, like i said before u r arguing for the sake of arguing, I see no point of continuing this......

I agree. This thread is on thin ice...

[wodenus]

Originally Posted by PsYkHoTiK

Microsoft has been the target of anti trust lawsuits numerous times (which is only enacted on companies that monopolize the market)

The AT suit has nothing to do with anyone's monopoly.. it's because they have unfair business practices.

Originally Posted by PsYkHoTiK

The only reason why nothing has happened to them is because they're immensley wealthy. How did they get so much money? By monopolizing of course...

So what you're saying is :

(1) If you're in the US and immensely wealthy, the law doesn't apply to you. This implies that the US legal system is corrupt.

(2) If you make something that is very popular, you're a monopoly, and you need to be prosecuted for it.

Okay, let's look at these terms

2 : exclusive possession or control

Does MS have exclusive possession or control of the software industry ? nope. The only thing MS has "exclusive possession or control" of is it's own software.

3 : a commodity controlled by one party

Which commodity does MS have exclusive control of ? software ? hardware ?

Originally Posted by PsYkHoTiK

We're telling you that it is being given for free to students in some places... Its an investment. Why? So that they will use it when they work...

Okay let me re-state my points again.. because it's all gotten out of control :

(1) MS is not a monopoly.

(2) I see no reason why MS (or any other software company) should lower prices. Lower prices will not significantly reduce piracy unless it goes below pirate prices. This will never happen. So lowering prices will not significantly reduce piracy.

(3) Just because they have high prices is not a justification for piracy. Nothing justifies piracy.

Those were the original points before this all went out of control.

[Adrian Wong]

Originally Posted by wodenus

LOL.. this is fun

Oh really? One minute you are complaining, now you are enjoying yourself?

Originally Posted by wodenus

If we're quoting people here.. Voltaire was reputed to have said "common sense is not so common"

Funny, I was not quoting anyone.

Originally Posted by wodenus

no proof again ?

Plenty of proof around. Just that I'm lazy to do your research. If you can find out about the cost of printing a page using a laser printer, I'm sure you can easily check out the cost of printing a page using an inkjet.

And for more reading, check out today's In.Tech for an article on the cost of inkjet inks.

Besides, if I ever bother to calculate it for you, you will just say it's my "conjecture". So, don't be so lazy.. go research it up.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Right..you make the allegations, but I have to do the calculations ? I have proved all calculations I've made

Nope. You made the allegations that one can print a book for almost nothing at all. So, it is your responsibility to back up that allegation with calculations.

To be honest, I have not seen a single calculation from you. So, please don't say you have "proven" anything.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Would you mind at least quoting it ? I don't want to trawl through all the replies trying to figure out where I said that, and what the context was.

You can't remember what you wrote?

How ironic.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Aren't you doing the same thing ? what was yours again ? let's get backt o the original point.. what was it again ?

Nope. Not at all. Read all my posts. I have been consistent and to the point. But all you have done is circle around and even contradict your own statements.

To be honest, I actually thought you to be a matured thinker. But you are honestly turning out to be nothing more than a troll.

Originally Posted by wodenus

What're all the ads for then ? and there are A LOT of them on the site

Ads? We are talking about piracy and you are talking about ads?

Stop going out of topic.

And if you think there are many ads in this site, go check out the other hardware sites like Tom's Hardware Guide or Anandtech.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Um.. isn't that because you want to sell to the people who can't afford the print version ? it's a sound business decision... you make more money by givng everyone differently-priced choices

Nope. It's because I didn't think it would have the costs associated with the printing of a book. So, I wanted them to reduce the price.

Originally Posted by wodenus

As soon as you quit judging companies guilty of overpricing (is there even such a thing ? )

No such thing as overpricing. Oooh, I see... Oh wow..

Originally Posted by wodenus

You don't think so ? why not ?

You think so? Why?

Originally Posted by wodenus

you're not kidding

Nope. I think everyone minus one will agree with me on this.

Originally Posted by wodenus

It's already quite low.

Oh really? Why?

Originally Posted by wodenus

Well. there are logs. And various tracking mechanisms

Oh really? Oh, my!!! Peaz, Chai, burn the papers and format the hard disk!! The FBI, BSA, etc. are coming after us!!!

Oh, please..

Originally Posted by wodenus

You realize this means that we both know nothing ?

Nope. It means you know nothing but you are not willing to admit it.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Seems to me that they just want to nail MS for something

I see. What an astute observation.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Taking stuff because it's too expensive is a sign of intelligence ?

Oh.. The I guess pricing stuff way out of reach of most people and indirectly promoting piracy are also signs of intelligence.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Yes it is. You just don't know, otherwise you'd have told me

If you are too lazy to read it up, or maybe you are just too afraid to find out that you are wrong.. then that's too bad.

I can't help it if you only want to be spoonfed.

Originally Posted by wodenus

If you'd actually read it, you can tell me

Nah, I've got better things to do.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Like I said, most products have lots of competition. That keeps prices down.

I see. Then I think we have nothing to worry about piracy.

Originally Posted by wodenus

I can't see any software where the price is not dictated by market forces. No one forces anyone to buy software.

Oh really? Funny thing is everytime I want to buy a laptop or a branded computer, they refuse to allow me to use an open source OS. Instead, they insist I have to either choose Microsoft Windows XP Home or Professional.

Oh, let me say it for you - it's still a choice!

Originally Posted by wodenus

Not as much, percentage-wise.

Oh, wait a minute. Pirated CD sellers make more money, percentage-wise? Oh wow..

Originally Posted by wodenus

Er.. the DVD contains the movie too, in case you haven't noticed and there's a lot more than just deleted scenes and commentary

Oh, I noticed alright. Just that you insisted they charge a lot more because of the additional material.

Originally Posted by wodenus

RM10-20.

Original DVD movies for RM 10-20? PLEASE, tell me where to buy them!

Originally Posted by wodenus

"Content is content" means the same content is the same whatever media you use.. the content stays the same. I didn't mean all content were the same

Woah.. Translation, anyone?

Originally Posted by wodenus

Whatever is worth copying is probably being copied already

How do you know that? Any proof?

Originally Posted by wodenus

That was a joke. I mean the price is pretty fair already

A joke! I see... How droll.

Please save your jokes for the Lounge.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Have you actually called MS and asked to order a single OEM copy ?

Have you?

Originally Posted by wodenus

Because they don't buy in bulk.

Surprisingly, many other software companies give discounts to students. What makes companies like Microsoft special?

Originally Posted by wodenus

So is MS. And it's way bigger

And your point is..?

Originally Posted by wodenus

If you don't like that, you can use some other OS.

Remind me to use the same reply whenever you complain about the forum script.

Originally Posted by wodenus

I don't remember any exaggerations.. can you quote one ?

Can't help it if you are forgetful.

Originally Posted by wodenus

The main question is this. How low do you have to lower it before people will buy ? different people have different perceptions as to how much software _should_ cost. And you'll have to agree that a lot of people don't understand the time, effort and expense required, so they underestimate the cost. Where is the magic number ? if they lower it, will ENOUGH people buy to offset the cost ?

PS. What about Office S/T Ed ? it's really cheap compared to standard Office. How many people are buying that ?

You know what.. why do I even bother? How low? How high? That's all for the software companies to decide.

If it really costs XXX million dollars to develop, get the message out. People will decide if it's worth paying XXXX dollars to use a useful/crappy software that took XXX million dollars to make.

If you are greedy, price as high as you like. But don't say you are not at fault for encouraging piracy. Right or wrong, piracy is fueled by high prices.

IMHO, I'm only discussing this for the sake of discussion. None of us here have any influence in the making any changes. So, why bother?

Like I said, unless someone with vision in the software industry does something to change the situation, piracy will ALWAYS prevail.

Who wins the discussion? Who cares. Time will tell.