The Pirated Software Discussion Thread!

[wodenus]

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

ROTFL! Looks like you have never done it before. Well, without going into details, we did that recently. Not Windows but a Microsoft product given free to certain members of a university.

However, Microsoft did not only provide that software for free download. They also provided many of their software for downloading. Therefore, it is not only possible, it is being done right now, in the real world.

That's just goodwill. They'll never give Windows away free

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Come on, are you actually going to stand there and argue with me over the costs of duplicating CDs and printing books? ROTFL! Come on, we all know very well how much it costs to make CDs in large quantities.

Not duplicating. But I'm of the opinion that the fixed cost structure is about the same

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

BTW, as far as customer support is concerned, needless to say, people who receive free software should not expect any.

True. But we're not just talking about customer support.. the bug fixes etc. cost too (and don't say they should have no bugs then cos everyone makes mistakes -- it's not as if books don't have errata )

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

It is NOT the same concept and you know it. I have refuted all of your allegations with facts. Right now, all I'm doing is rehashing the same points for your benefit.

IMHO, you do not have any particular stance in this matter. You just enjoy playing the devil's advocate. Hehe.. If I happen to be AGAINST piracy, I'll bet you will argue FOR piracy.

Yes it is. I've refuted all of yours as well. I don't see the difference, content is content whether it's in a book or in a CD-ROM Stance ? what stance ? I'm sitting down.. but what does that have to do with anything ?

[Adrian Wong]

Originally Posted by wodenus

That's just goodwill. They'll never give Windows away free

LOL! I wouldn't give it away for free either. Like it or not, Microsoft did devote a lot of time and money into Windows XP. Never mind the holes they left in it!

Originally Posted by wodenus

Not duplicating. But I'm of the opinion that the fixed cost structure is about the same

Opinion is one thing. Facts are another.

Opinions-aside, duplicating CDs in large quantities is dirt cheap. That's why many companies just make thousands of CDs and give them away for free.

But when it comes to something you give out for free, I don't think anyone will complain if you distribute it online. Even if it's 600MB in size, it's free.

Unfortunately, books do not get cheaper to print as time pass. Print cost increases over time. While you can fit the contents of an entire book into a single CD which costs less than 20 sen (USD 0.05), you can't print a book for even 10 TIMES the cost of a CD.

So, the cost structures are not similar at all. In fact, it's really like comparing e-mail with snail mail.

Originally Posted by wodenus

True. But we're not just talking about customer support.. the bug fixes etc. cost too (and don't say they should have no bugs then cos everyone makes mistakes -- it's not as if books don't have errata )

Bug fixes? Do they cost money to distribute? When was the last time Microsoft charged you for a bug fix?

Yup. Books certainly have errata. I have already found quite a few in my book. That means marking them out in a book and sending it in to get the next revision corrected. Such revisions cost money too. And it's not as simple or as cheap as making a new master CD.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Yes it is. I've refuted all of yours as well. I don't see the difference, content is content whether it's in a book or in a CD-ROM Stance ? what stance ? I'm sitting down.. but what does that have to do with anything ?

Err.. I will have to disagree with that. You only presented your "opinions", not facts.

LOL! Yup. I agree. Content is content, no matter where you put it. But a book is still different from a CD, even if they have the same content.

Just like humans who have the same knowledge. We may all have the same knowledge. But it's what we do with that knowledge that differentiates the learned from the wise.

[Bestia(ry)]

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

...the wise.

It's me who he's pointing at.

[wodenus]

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

LOL! I wouldn't give it away for free either. Like it or not, Microsoft did devote a lot of time and money into Windows XP. Never mind the holes they left in it!

Opinion is one thing. Facts are another.

Opinions-aside, duplicating CDs in large quantities is dirt cheap. That's why many companies just make thousands of CDs and give them away for free.

But when it comes to something you give out for free, I don't think anyone will complain if you distribute it online. Even if it's 600MB in size, it's free.

Bandwidth and server maintenance isn't though

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Unfortunately, books do not get cheaper to print as time pass.

I'm sure they do.. just not as fast a CDs. and the cost is offset by the extra costs that software publishers have to endure, like support and bandwidth and maintenance

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Bug fixes? Do they cost money to distribute? When was the last time Microsoft charged you for a bug fix?

Exactly.. they're giving us the bug fixes for free.. but that incurs a cost, which adds to the production cost of the software.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Yup. Books certainly have errata. I have already found quite a few in my book. That means marking them out in a book and sending it in to get the next revision corrected. Such revisions cost money too. And it's not as simple or as cheap as making a new master CD.

Won't cost as much as Windows Update though, would it ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Err.. I will have to disagree with that. You only presented your "opinions", not facts.

Well, I presented as many facts and figures as you did.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

LOL! Yup. I agree. Content is content, no matter where you put it. But a book is still different from a CD, even if they have the same content.

What's different is only the media. As far as costs are concerned, it costs more to develop and publish software now because (1) a large amount of highly skilled people are still needed and (2) an extensive support network needs to be maintained. This by far outweighs the little extra cost it takes to produce a book (which is not much if you print in volume.) Also books can be recycled, but CDs can't.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Just like humans who have the same knowledge. We may all have the same knowledge. But it's what we do with that knowledge that differentiates the learned from the wise.

This has nothing to do with anything

[wodenus]

Originally Posted by Bestia

It's me who he's pointing at.

Yeah, I bet he says "wise" every time he points to you.. like "wise (s)he always like that?"

[Bestia(ry)]

Originally Posted by wodenus

Yeah, I bet he says "wise" every time he points to you.. like "wise (s)he always like that?"

I'm no "she", otherwise I'd be very mad about this statement.

[Adrian Wong]

Originally Posted by wodenus

Bandwidth and server maintenance isn't though

Err... The software is being hosted in the university's own servers. So, there is no cost to Microsoft.

And if Microsoft ever decides to give free software to all students, they can always allow them to download via P2P. Free bandwidth, no server maintenance, self-perpetuating.

Originally Posted by wodenus

I'm sure they do.. just not as fast a CDs. and the cost is offset by the extra costs that software publishers have to endure, like support and bandwidth and maintenance

You are sure they do? Meaning you THINK, or you KNOW? There is a difference, you know.

I think it's pointless to argue over costs of a software publisher, since it can vary from virtually nothing to a substantial amount.

On the other hand, book publishers have a fixed cost. Like it or not, as long as you are going to print a book, each book will cost you a certain amount of money.

Printing in large numbers will offset the cost of the printing plates and copywriting, etc. But NOT the material cost nor the cost of actually printing the book. That is the minimum cost that no software company has to deal with if they want to give away software for free to students or the retirees.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Exactly.. they're giving us the bug fixes for free.. but that incurs a cost, which adds to the production cost of the software.

Agreed. But so does correcting mistakes in books.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Won't cost as much as Windows Update though, would it ?

And you would know because...

Originally Posted by wodenus

Well, I presented as many facts and figures as you did.

Err.. Hate to disagree with you but they all sound more like conjectures and opinions than facts.

Originally Posted by wodenus

What's different is only the media. As far as costs are concerned, it costs more to develop and publish software now because (1) a large amount of highly skilled people are still needed and (2) an extensive support network needs to be maintained. This by far outweighs the little extra cost it takes to produce a book (which is not much if you print in volume.) Also books can be recycled, but CDs can't.

Hah.. You sure?

Anyone can now make a CD and distribute them. Even my 14-year old cousin is already an expert at writing her own CDs. That's hardly called skilled.

Remember, we are talking about free software to be given to students and retirees. When it comes to free software, the company is free to absolve itself of any support obligations and rightfully too.

Little extra cost of printing a book?

If it's really just a little more expensive than making CDs, man, I shouldn't have wasted my time and efforts in publishing the BOG book. I guess I should have just printed it myself! Maybe using my Bubblejet.

Seriously, no one here is capable of printing a book without a publishing house or a printer experienced in printing books. On the other hand, talented programmers can and have created and sold software via the Internet with minimal costs.

Originally Posted by wodenus

This has nothing to do with anything

It has a lot to do with how or what we are discussing, if you can read between the lines.

[hyper_raider]

Originally Posted by wodenus

That's just goodwill. They'll never give Windows away free

I beg to differ....i can name you a few universities which gives away Windows for free.....

[Viper007Bond]

Originally Posted by hyper_raider

I beg to differ....i can name you a few universities which gives away Windows for free.....

But they are paying MS.

And god, this thread exploded in the 24 hours since I've visited here...

[hyper_raider]

Originally Posted by Viper007Bond

But they are paying MS.

And god, this thread exploded in the 24 hours since I've visited here...

i dont think so..i could be wrong...the school of engineering here has some sort of deal with microsoft..somehow...i have had friends who received it FOC from their universities as well....through some sort of deal the uni has wif MS...