The Pirated Software Discussion Thread!

[Adrian Wong]

Originally Posted by hyper_raider

i dont think so..i could be wrong...the school of engineering here has some sort of deal with microsoft..somehow...i have had friends who received it FOC from their universities as well....through some sort of deal the uni has wif MS...

That is actually very smart of Microsoft. In fact, Apple has done something similar for schools.

By giving students free copies of Microsoft software, they are encouraging students to learn and focus on Microsoft software. This inevitably influences company buying decisions.

If universities base their curriculum on Microsoft software and graduates come armed with knowledge of Microsoft software, companies will think about switching to Microsoft software. After all, it saves them the cost of retraining new employees on other software.

So, even though Microsoft is giving away free software, it's not a loss for them. Call it a strategic move. They will reap the benefits indirectly.

[PsYkHoTiK]

Originally Posted by hyper_raider

i dont think so..i could be wrong...the school of engineering here has some sort of deal with microsoft..somehow...i have had friends who received it FOC from their universities as well....through some sort of deal the uni has wif MS...

MS actually sponsors students. In the email that business students here received, they were saying that they're gonna provide ANY software just ask for it, they'll give u the cd key, and u can download the stuff and burn it on cd.

If MS wanted to stop piracy, they would have done so long ago. As you can see, no one really enforces the copyright laws (regarding software) upon individuals. I agree with Adrian. By providing BASIC software packages, students will learn how to use the software. When they finish and start working, guess what software they're gonna use?

However, the laws are enforced on a business level.

[wodenus]

Originally Posted by hyper_raider

i dont think so..i could be wrong...the school of engineering here has some sort of deal with microsoft..somehow...i have had friends who received it FOC from their universities as well....through some sort of deal the uni has wif MS...

It's called "open license". They pay MS for the right to give you software for free.

[Adrian Wong]

Originally Posted by wodenus

It's called "open license". They pay MS for the right to give you software for free.

I don't think it's an open license.

Check out Microsoft's open license programme for educational institutions - http://www.microsoft.com/education/Open.aspx

Looks more like a more convenient way of managing software purchases, than a way to provide free Microsoft software to students.

I would say that Microsoft is actually giving their software free to university students. Just like I said they should. Benefits them in the long run.

[wodenus]

Why is it I never see the stuff I wrote that you're replying to ? and where do I click to instantly get to the last page ? for some strange reason the last post is on the last page and not the first

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Err... The software is being hosted in the university's own servers. So, there is no cost to Microsoft.

And if Microsoft ever decides to give free software to all students, they can always allow them to download via P2P. Free bandwidth, no server maintenance, self-perpetuating.

Oh yeah, allow them to download via P2P. Half of them will have piggybacked trojans. The damage to MS' reputation would be incalcuable and even if they did that they'd still have to pay for support and bugfixes.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

You are sure they do? Meaning you THINK, or you KNOW? There is a difference, you know.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

I think it's pointless to argue over costs of a software publisher, since it can vary from virtually nothing to a substantial amount.

So printing a book can cost almost nothing too ? how about that

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

On the other hand, book publishers have a fixed cost. Like it or not, as long as you are going to print a book, each book will cost you a certain amount of money.

Printing in large numbers will offset the cost of the printing plates and copywriting, etc. But NOT the material cost nor the cost of actually printing the book. That is the minimum cost that no software company has to deal with if they want to give away software for free to students or the retirees.

Which is why people can (and do) give away software for free (if they want to.) Still doesn't justify illegal duplication.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Agreed. But so does correcting mistakes in books.

Fixing a software bug involves a lot more than just publishing an errata list

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

And you would know because...

I've written errata lists, and I've fixed software bugs. No question which ones are harder to do

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Err.. Hate to disagree with you but they all sound more like conjectures and opinions than facts.

Like I said, I presented as many facts and figures as you did

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Hah.. You sure?

Anyone can now make a CD and distribute them. Even my 14-year old cousin is already an expert at writing her own CDs. That's hardly called skilled.

Remember, we are talking about free software to be given to students and retirees. When it comes to free software, the company is free to absolve itself of any support obligations and rightfully too.

Free software is like free books.. no guarantees, no support. But the point here is not that you can't make software free. It's that there really is no justification for software piracy.


Little extra cost of printing a book?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

If it's really just a little more expensive than making CDs, man, I shouldn't have wasted my time and efforts in publishing the BOG book. I guess I should have just printed it myself! Maybe using my Bubblejet.

Seriously, no one here is capable of printing a book without a publishing house or a printer experienced in printing books. On the other hand, talented programmers can and have created and sold software via the Internet with minimal costs.

That's maybe cos they had sponsors. In the end, someone's gonna have to pay for it. As for really free software, you can make it as easily as you can print a book on your bubblejet but no one is capable of undertaking huge projects without help. And that help costs as much as book help. That's why you cannot ever release major software projects for free.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

It has a lot to do with how or what we are discussing, if you can read between the lines.

Well, you'll have to make that clear to me.. stuff between the lines is always open to interpretation

[wodenus]

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

I don't think it's an open license.

Check out Microsoft's open license programme for educational institutions - http://www.microsoft.com/education/Open.aspx

Why can't it be open license ?

[Adrian Wong]

Originally Posted by wodenus

Why is it I never see the stuff I wrote that you're replying to ? and where do I click to instantly get to the last page ? for some strange reason the last post is on the last page and not the first

I don't get you. You can go to the last post by clicking on the last post icon .

Originally Posted by wodenus

Oh yeah, allow them to download via P2P. Half of them will have piggybacked trojans. The damage to MS' reputation would be incalcuable and even if they did that they'd still have to pay for support and bugfixes.

Oh really? I have downloaded many files off P2P with no trojans.

Besides, there are many alternative methods of serving free software. But of course, if you don't agree on giving away free software, no way is ever good enough.

But no matter what you may say, Microsoft is ALREADY giving away free software via the Internet. That's proof.. and fact. Not conjectures, opinions or mere possibilities.

Originally Posted by wodenus

So printing a book can cost almost nothing too ? how about that

Really? Please help me print the BOG book for almost nothing then.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Which is why people can (and do) give away software for free (if they want to.) Still doesn't justify illegal duplication.

Err.. I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Fixing a software bug involves a lot more than just publishing an errata list

Did I ever say otherwise?

Originally Posted by wodenus

I've written errata lists, and I've fixed software bugs. No question which ones are harder to do

Err.. Again, did I ever say otherwise?

Originally Posted by wodenus

Like I said, I presented as many facts and figures as you did

No comment!

Originally Posted by wodenus

Free software is like free books.. no guarantees, no support. But the point here is not that you can't make software free. It's that there really is no justification for software piracy.

Err.. I never said all software should be provided free, although there are people who write software and distribute them for free use.

When it comes to big companies providing software for free to students, that is considered a calculated investment. Giving software to them will not bring them any money, but it will certainly encourage more people to use their software.

Indirectly, this influences buying decisions of various commercial entities, large and small. If most of your workforce is very proficient in Microsoft software, would you prefer to migrate to Microsoft software or take time, effort and money to retrain them to use Sun or Mac software?

This is especially true for smaller companies that cannot afford to retrain their staff. For them, the cost of buying Microsoft software is a LOT cheaper than retraining the staff.

Originally Posted by wodenus

That's maybe cos they had sponsors. In the end, someone's gonna have to pay for it. As for really free software, you can make it as easily as you can print a book on your bubblejet but no one is capable of undertaking huge projects without help. And that help costs as much as book help. That's why you cannot ever release major software projects for free.

Sponsors? What sponsors? Have you seen the open source projects? Those programmers are not working for profit, but as part of a worldwide team to promote open source software.

Again, no one is saying that if you work on something, you do not have the right to benefit from it. Heck, I said that right from the beginning.

All I'm saying is large software companies should consider giving their software free to students and retirees. Not only will this benefit them by increasing their market share in the future, but also educate students about the value and importance of buying original software and supporting their development.

Originally Posted by wodenus

Well, you'll have to make that clear to me.. stuff between the lines is always open to interpretation

When you take a step back and look at the whole situation, there is really no right or wrong way in this matter. There are only consequences. Cause and effect.

If large software companies want to correct software piracy and improve their profits, they have to stop thinking about making a killing now and start thinking proactively and long-term.

Their current method of smash and litigate will only arouse the ire of rebellious young people and encourage software piracy as a way to thumb their nose at large, faceless corporations with nothing more than profits on their minds. In the end, who loses? Think about that.

[Adrian Wong]

Originally Posted by wodenus

Why can't it be open license ?

If you check out the link, you will know why.

I'll quote :-

Microsoft Academic Open License is a smart choice for great value on Microsoft software. Designed for educational institutions of all sizes, Academic Open provides an easy way to acquire and administer multiple copies of software and receive license confirmations quickly and conveniently. With an initial order of just five or more licenses, you can obtain the most current Microsoft software products while managing overall costs and staying compliant.

In addition, Academic Open License offers you the Software Assurance option, giving you the rights to stay current with the latest versions of your licensed software and access to eLearning content.

Academic Open License offers:
• Simplicity—Academic Open is easy to understand and administer with simple, clear terms for acquiring software licenses.

• Flexibility—Academic Open is flexible enough to meet the needs of a broad range of institutions. You can choose from a wide selection of products. After an initial order of five or more licenses, you may reorder as few as one license, so you order only what they need.

• Availability—You can acquire Microsoft products through Academic Open from any Authorized Education Reseller (AER).

• Compliancy—With eOpen, you receive license confirmation information electronically and can quickly and easily view your license purchase history—so there's never any question about what licenses you own.

[Papercut]

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

If large software companies want to correct software piracy and improve their profits, they have to stop thinking about making a killing now and start thinking proactively and long-term.

Their current method of smash and litigate will only arouse the ire of rebellious young people and encourage software piracy as a way to thumb their nose at large, faceless corporations with nothing more than profits on their minds. In the end, who loses? Think about that.

Exactly!!! I'll bring up another example. VCD piracy was rampant in the mid and late nineties; go to anywhere in Malaysia and you could get a pirated VCD of your favourite movie for a few ringgit. Where was the incentive for people to buy the original movie for several times the price? There was none. So what did the VCD retailers do? Lower prices so that they didn't lose out to the retailers of bootleg copies. Coupled with the nationwide crackdown on bootleg retailers in Malaysia, it worked wonderfully. Nowadays it's much harder to control piracy especially with warez and P2P on the Internet, but the same method would still be very effective today, with regards to countering software piracy. Ask anyone who buys pirated software - the main (and perhaps the only reason) that they buy pirated copies is that the original software is too expensive. In fact, it's already clear enough from the people who have been voicing out in this thread.

[wodenus]

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

I don't get you. You can go to the last post by clicking on the last post icon .

It's either not around or I can't find it I think it's not here for some reason.. I can't see it anywhere on the page

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Oh really? I have downloaded many files off P2P with no trojans.

Not everyone is as clued-in as you

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

But no matter what you may say, Microsoft is ALREADY giving away free software via the Internet. That's proof.. and fact. Not conjectures, opinions or mere possibilities.

People are giving books away free too. Maybe not paper ones, but books all the same.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Really? Please help me print the BOG book for almost nothing then.

Use your own inkjet

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

When it comes to big companies providing software for free to students, that is considered a calculated investment. Giving software to them will not bring them any money, but it will certainly encourage more people to use their software.

Well if you think that way, what stops you from selling your book at cost to students and retirees ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Sponsors? What sponsors? Have you seen the open source projects? Those programmers are not working for profit, but as part of a worldwide team to promote open source software.

No one knows true intention. They may not be working for profit.. but you can't say they're working "to promote open source software" -- they may be working to promote themselves, working to establish a reputation, maybe even using open source as a testbed for their commercial products.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Again, no one is saying that if you work on something, you do not have the right to benefit from it. Heck, I said that right from the beginning.

Dead right. What you don't have the right to is duplicate it w/o express permission from the authors.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

All I'm saying is large software companies should consider giving their software free to students and retirees. Not only will this benefit them by increasing their market share in the future, but also educate students about the value and importance of buying original software and supporting their development.

They already do.. no argument about that. They DO give away software free. The whole point is this -- you cannot justify software piracy by saying it's too expensive, or that you're poor, or that the company is rich and can afford it. There is simply no justification for software piracy. Anyway, if you think some software should be free, why not consider selling your book at cost to students and retirees ?

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

If large software companies want to correct software piracy and improve their profits, they have to stop thinking about making a killing now and start thinking proactively and long-term.

I don't know if they're making more of a killing than other content industries. You generally don't think long-term in this industry because it moves very fast -- plan something for ten years and you'll have outdated software at the end of it In this industry you have to keep moving. MS is doing us a big favor already (or maybe it's because of the competition.) If they sold Windows at say RM1K there would probably still be demand.

Originally Posted by Adrian Wong

Their current method of smash and litigate will only arouse the ire of rebellious young people and encourage software piracy as a way to thumb their nose at large, faceless corporations with nothing more than profits on their minds. In the end, who loses? Think about that.

I think if they lowered the prices of software there'd still be piracy 'cos it's always cheaper to duplicate it I mean, you don't sell your book at cost to students and retirees, but you (or your publisher) would prosecute if there was wide-scale piracy wouldn't they ? so there's no solution to this I think. Or at least the solution is not to lower prices ('cos piracy is always cheaper.) The only way to get the profits due to you is to prosecute. I can't think of any other way.

PS. It'd be good if someone found a real way to prevent piracy wouldn't it ?