The Pirated Software Discussion Thread!

Discussion in 'General Software' started by Viper007Bond, Nov 11, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. wodenus

    wodenus Banned


    Fair enough.. so you won't mind me photocopying copies of the book for free distribution to students and retirees ? :) if you can't work, how can you be expected to pay for books ? :)

    It's a one-time issue, sure, but it's a _big_ issue. You might as well say that "since the cost of developing a book is a one-time issue (for each version), free copies of books for students and retirees will not cost the company anything. In fact, it will encourage more people to read their books, which may influence buying patterns of companies." :)
     
  2. Adrian Wong

    Adrian Wong Da Boss Staff Member

    wodenus, it's always easy to twist other people's words into what they do not mean. :naughty: :mrgreen:

    As far as copyright is concerned, I leave that to Prentice-Hall. That's one of the reasons why I signed the contract with them. ;)

    Ahh.. Please don't keep generalizing. :naughty:

    The cost of replicating software is essentially free. Microsoft gives out free software copies online at certain universities. The cost of distributing them? Virtually nothing.

    But books? Beyond the cost of developing the book, you still need to print them, distribute them, pay people to sell them, etc. The cost of each book is therefore fixed, irrespective of the number of copies sold.

    On my part, I've already ensured there will always be a free version of the online BOG.
     
  3. wodenus

    wodenus Banned

    What do you mean generalizing.. it's the same concept.. books are content.. software is content. :) Books aren't that expensive to replicate in volume either :) as far as Windows is concerned, don't you need to payt people to distribute and sell them as well ?

    PS. Back later. Dinner time. :)
     
  4. Adrian Wong

    Adrian Wong Da Boss Staff Member

    Nope. That's generalizing. :mrgreen:

    You know very well that duplicating copies of software is essentially free. Look at the way Microsoft distributes free software. All you need to do is go online and download a copy. What's the cost? Zero.

    But look at books. The development of even a single book like the BOG book involves many people. Even if they all work for free, the print cost of each book is substantial. Try asking at any vanity press.

    As far as distribution is concerned, when software is given out free, I don't think people will mind downloading online. That relieves the company of distribution costs. At least they have the option.

    Books do not. If you want to sell books, you have to physically MOVE them to distribution points. That costs money. And you have to pay people to sell them. You cannot just upload a physical book for people to download for free.

    So, it's NOT the same concept. :hand:
     
  5. Papercut

    Papercut Newbie

    Fair enough. But wasn't that a long time ago? We all know that technology moves at a blistering pace, so what was happening a few years ago usually isn't relevant anymore.
     
  6. Papercut

    Papercut Newbie

    It's not. But the price that MS is charging undeniably goes way beyond trying to cover the costs of developing the software.


    It doesn't usually work that way with pricing. Going back to the model of a competitive market, companies will have to adjust their pricing according to consumer demand and the price of their competitors' products. As I've said several times already, in MS' case it is different because their competition is negligible, hence leaving the door wide open to charge whatever price they wish.

    About the second point - consumers generally look for the cheapest possible alternative to get what we want. This isn't just confined to the area of computers and software. If you are reluctant to spend money on new CDs or records, what do you do? In the old days, you ask someone who has it to record it onto a cassette tape for you. Nowadays, we have massive P2P networks trading millions of MP3s and whole albums, or you could ask a friend to burn a copy of the CD for you. How is this any different from software piracy? If you can honestly say that you don't have a single MP3 or copied CD, then I can't argue anymore. But if you do, then you are just as guilty as people who buy pirated software.
     
  7. wodenus

    wodenus Banned

    When's the last time you say MS distribute or sell Windows as an online download ? :) given the still unstable nature of the net, who'd want to download a 600 MB OS ? it'd be infeasible in many parts of the world. :) and CD duplication isn't exactly cheap.. good CD-ROM media still cost. And then there's the necessary anti-piracy countermeasures (holograms etc.) -- those cost too. So you still have to pay people to distribute and sell. And then you have to pay for customer support as well, cos people expect that. So any extra cost to publish the book is offset by the extra cost required to maintain a support network for the software (can't just publish an errata list for software you know :) )

    It IS the same concept. And worse. :)
     
  8. wodenus

    wodenus Banned

    True. That's why Windows doesn't cost US$15,000 per license :)
     
  9. Adrian Wong

    Adrian Wong Da Boss Staff Member

    ROTFL! Looks like you have never done it before. :haha: Well, without going into details, we did that recently. Not Windows but a Microsoft product given free to certain members of a university. ;)

    However, Microsoft did not only provide that software for free download. They also provided many of their software for downloading. Therefore, it is not only possible, it is being done right now, in the real world. ;)

    Come on, are you actually going to stand there and argue with me over the costs of duplicating CDs and printing books? ROTFL! Come on, we all know very well how much it costs to make CDs in large quantities. :haha:

    BTW, as far as customer support is concerned, needless to say, people who receive free software should not expect any.

    It is NOT the same concept and you know it. I have refuted all of your allegations with facts. Right now, all I'm doing is rehashing the same points for your benefit. ;)

    IMHO, you do not have any particular stance in this matter. You just enjoy playing the devil's advocate. Hehe.. If I happen to be AGAINST piracy, I'll bet you will argue FOR piracy. :haha:
     
  10. wodenus

    wodenus Banned

    Well yes, that's called a profit :)

    Aren't we lucky that they don't charge US$15K then ? :)

    You're right. It's not different at all. Piracy is piracy, whether it's books or CDs or software or music. I really don't have a single MP3 or copied CD. It'd be hypocritical of me to say "don't take out stuff" and then take others' stuff, wouldn't it ? :) Isn't it weird how people who don't respect copyright expect others to respect theirs ? :)
     
  11. wodenus

    wodenus Banned

    That's just goodwill. They'll never give Windows away free :)

    Not duplicating. But I'm of the opinion that the fixed cost structure is about the same :)

    True. But we're not just talking about customer support.. the bug fixes etc. cost too (and don't say they should have no bugs then cos everyone makes mistakes -- it's not as if books don't have errata :) )

    Yes it is. I've refuted all of yours as well. I don't see the difference, content is content whether it's in a book or in a CD-ROM :) Stance ? what stance ? I'm sitting down.. but what does that have to do with anything ? :)
     
  12. Adrian Wong

    Adrian Wong Da Boss Staff Member

    LOL! I wouldn't give it away for free either. Like it or not, Microsoft did devote a lot of time and money into Windows XP. Never mind the holes they left in it! :haha:

    Opinion is one thing. Facts are another. ;)

    Opinions-aside, duplicating CDs in large quantities is dirt cheap. That's why many companies just make thousands of CDs and give them away for free.

    But when it comes to something you give out for free, I don't think anyone will complain if you distribute it online. Even if it's 600MB in size, it's free.

    Unfortunately, books do not get cheaper to print as time pass. Print cost increases over time. While you can fit the contents of an entire book into a single CD which costs less than 20 sen (USD 0.05), you can't print a book for even 10 TIMES the cost of a CD.

    So, the cost structures are not similar at all. In fact, it's really like comparing e-mail with snail mail. :haha:

    Bug fixes? Do they cost money to distribute? When was the last time Microsoft charged you for a bug fix? :mrgreen:

    Yup. Books certainly have errata. I have already found quite a few in my book. That means marking them out in a book and sending it in to get the next revision corrected. Such revisions cost money too. And it's not as simple or as cheap as making a new master CD.

    Err.. I will have to disagree with that. You only presented your "opinions", not facts. :mrgreen:

    LOL! Yup. I agree. Content is content, no matter where you put it. But a book is still different from a CD, even if they have the same content.

    Just like humans who have the same knowledge. We may all have the same knowledge. But it's what we do with that knowledge that differentiates the learned from the wise. :mrgreen:
     
  13. Bestia(ry)

    Bestia(ry) Mac'ster

    It's me who he's pointing at. :D :haha:
     
  14. wodenus

    wodenus Banned

    Bandwidth and server maintenance isn't though :)

    I'm sure they do.. just not as fast a CDs. :) and the cost is offset by the extra costs that software publishers have to endure, like support and bandwidth and maintenance :)

    Exactly.. they're giving us the bug fixes for free.. but that incurs a cost, which adds to the production cost of the software. :)

    Won't cost as much as Windows Update though, would it ? :)

    Well, I presented as many facts and figures as you did. :)

    What's different is only the media. As far as costs are concerned, it costs more to develop and publish software now because (1) a large amount of highly skilled people are still needed and (2) an extensive support network needs to be maintained. This by far outweighs the little extra cost it takes to produce a book (which is not much if you print in volume.) Also books can be recycled, but CDs can't. :)

    This has nothing to do with anything :)
     
  15. wodenus

    wodenus Banned

    Yeah, I bet he says "wise" every time he points to you.. like "wise (s)he always like that?" :)
     
  16. Bestia(ry)

    Bestia(ry) Mac'ster

    I'm no "she", otherwise I'd be very mad about this statement. :snooty: ;)
     
  17. Adrian Wong

    Adrian Wong Da Boss Staff Member

    Err... The software is being hosted in the university's own servers. So, there is no cost to Microsoft. :mrgreen:

    And if Microsoft ever decides to give free software to all students, they can always allow them to download via P2P. Free bandwidth, no server maintenance, self-perpetuating. ;)

    You are sure they do? Meaning you THINK, or you KNOW? There is a difference, you know. :mrgreen:

    I think it's pointless to argue over costs of a software publisher, since it can vary from virtually nothing to a substantial amount.

    On the other hand, book publishers have a fixed cost. Like it or not, as long as you are going to print a book, each book will cost you a certain amount of money.

    Printing in large numbers will offset the cost of the printing plates and copywriting, etc. But NOT the material cost nor the cost of actually printing the book. That is the minimum cost that no software company has to deal with if they want to give away software for free to students or the retirees.

    Agreed. But so does correcting mistakes in books. ;)

    And you would know because... :wicked:

    Err.. Hate to disagree with you but they all sound more like conjectures and opinions than facts. ;)

    Hah.. You sure? :mrgreen:

    Anyone can now make a CD and distribute them. Even my 14-year old cousin is already an expert at writing her own CDs. That's hardly called skilled. :haha:

    Remember, we are talking about free software to be given to students and retirees. When it comes to free software, the company is free to absolve itself of any support obligations and rightfully too.

    Little extra cost of printing a book? :shock:

    If it's really just a little more expensive than making CDs, man, I shouldn't have wasted my time and efforts in publishing the BOG book. I guess I should have just printed it myself! Maybe using my Bubblejet. :haha:

    Seriously, no one here is capable of printing a book without a publishing house or a printer experienced in printing books. On the other hand, talented programmers can and have created and sold software via the Internet with minimal costs.

    It has a lot to do with how or what we are discussing, if you can read between the lines. :mrgreen:
     
  18. hyper_raider

    hyper_raider shutdown -h now

    I beg to differ....i can name you a few universities which gives away Windows for free.....
     
  19. Viper007Bond

    Viper007Bond Newbie

    But they are paying MS.

    And god, this thread exploded in the 24 hours since I've visited here... :nuts:
     
  20. hyper_raider

    hyper_raider shutdown -h now

    i dont think so..i could be wrong...the school of engineering here has some sort of deal with microsoft..somehow...i have had friends who received it FOC from their universities as well....through some sort of deal the uni has wif MS...
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page