As a tax-paying citizen, no... Haha... I don't want to suffer the effects of an economic downturn. BN has stolen tons of public funds in the 50+ years they have been in power. It's one thing for them to leech our money during the good times. In these bad times, they WILL bankrupt the country before the next general elections. Then it will be way too late for us... Just look at how fast they acted to get things running "as usual" after snatching power from PR in Perak :
Oh come on, you're going into hyperbole now. BN is in power (no matter what happens in Perak) on the Federal Government, and we'll find out in 2013 whether the country's bankrupt then alright? No one likes the effects of an economic downturn, and my argument is having an economic downturn + massive political infighting leading to a lame duck government unable to stimulate anything economically will be worse no? You want to know what I find to be on a similar level if not worse than BN's actions? That was from Malaysiakini. When I read that, the first thing that went into my mind was: "Not another Thailand again". Blocking access to the state coffers is like shutting the state down literally, no cash for councils, etc, etc. Oh, no denying some cash will go to 'contractors', but punish everyone along with it? Nuts! Those bloody PR idiots better not try that seriously. Last thing we want is for them to torpedo themselves with that kinda action. Look, I'm not saying that they shouldn't have snap elections, but please don't try to shut down the whole ****ing state if you don't get your way. Edit: and yes I'm aware it's just a threat, but the fact that they even thought of it and were willing to tell the press about it scares me.
ROTFL!! Why do you think I'm for a takeover by Pakatan Rakyat? Do you not think I want a proper change of power through elections in 2012/2013? Of course, that's the best way to change government. However, can we afford to wait until 2012/2013 the way things are going? At the end of the day, there may not be much of a country left to fight over in the next general elections. Look at what BN did on snatching over the reins of power in Perak. Of course, I would also want the state coffers nailed shut. Heck, give me a hammer, a sack of nails and I would be happy to do it for you. No, you are mistaken. Contracts that have been signed have to be fulfilled. There are no two ways about it. This is why the Toyols in BN made sure they signed all those fishy contracts just before the general elections. No matter how lop-sided those contracts are, the new government has to abide by them. So, there's no question of local councils running out of funds, or shutting down of public services. It's all about denying them the power to award NEW contracts before they are kicked out again, either by a court or by fresh elections. Don't worry la... The sky isn't going to fall on anyone's heads just yet. Hehe...
Yes we can afford it. We have survived Mahathir's era, and he certainly isn't much cleaner than Badawi, or Najib. Khir Toyo might not be clean, but Muhammad Taib wasn't much better either in 1997 when he was in power in Selangor (and the fact that he still has a post in UMNO only shows how bad that party is). Why isn't there a question of local councils running out of funds? Close the coffers and they will, unless they manage to propose some other method to avoid it, but there's nothing on that front. For now I'm willing to take that as another empty threat, so yeah I'll gloss that over. I still think that it's best that PR just shut up in Perak for a while now, to avoid pissing off the royalists, and also to avoid the potential pitfall which I'm very scared of, detailed above. The money flowing to cronies, etc, etc, is nothing new at all. If they didn't bankrupt the country in past recessions I don't see why this time is different at all. Which is exactly my point. No one wants to see the money getting stashed away, except for the parties benefiting from it, but to claim that it's going to bankrupt the country when this practice has been happening for ages, and over the past few recessions, has no merit at all, unless proof can be shown that it's somehow much more different from the last time. That's really my only challenge, your assertion that they, the BN will bankrupt the country before the next GE. Siphon and steal? Hell yes, but bankrupt, I doubt. We'll find out in 4 years
We will survive, of course. It's just a matter of how we survive. Even if they screw up the country, we still HAVE to survive. It's not a matter of choice. But that doesn't mean we should not fight for a BETTER way out of the mess. Oh, who ever said the Old Man was clean? LOL! I have seen soiled diapers cleaner than he is! The "man with two Muhamads in his name" is probably one of the most famous icons of corruption (and how to get away with it!) in Malaysia. Future corrupt politicians will do well to learn from these two "experten". No la... Local councils are local councils. Different pot altogether. This is the STATE assembly we are talking about, you know. The local councils have their own funds la.... Those who pay their local councils assessments every 6 months will know what I'm talking about. Don't worry about the local councils. What royalist? UMNO Youth? Don't forget - it was UMNO who removed blanket immunity from the royal families. If that's what royalists do, the royal family need not look for enemies. They just need more "royalists". Cronies are nothing new. In fact, they are a dime a dozen, as common as McDonald's. Heck, let's call them McCronies! But you forget that in the past, we have been able to successfully patch the holes in our economy with oil money. This time may be different. We are running out of oil... and oil prices have slumped. The government may patch this economy once again, but at the cost of our future. Imagine Malaysia without oil in 5 years.... You want proof that things will be different before you act? LOL! In that case, I'm sure am glad you are not in charge of the economy! Take for example, a recession. You have to WAIT until there are two consecutive quarters of negative growth to "prove" that there is a recession. You wanna wait for the proof? I don't know about you - I prefer to be proactive. Technically, I believe a country cannot be bankrupt because we are using fiat currency which is not backed by gold. So, our government can just print all the money they want at the cost of inflation. If you are talking about foreign reserves, then take a look at this chart from Anil Netto : And some stats of our foreign reserves : 2008 31 Mar US$120.3 billion 30 June US$125.8 billion 30 Sept US$109.7 billion 31 Dec US$91.3 billion 2009 13 Feb US$91.6 billion As you can see, our foreign reserves FELL by 34.5 billion (27.4%) in the second half of 2008. If the trend continues, well, our reserves could be wiped out in less than 2 years. Just for comparison, the US stimulus package of over $800 billion is 8.7X that of our remaining foreign reserve. Of course, we can always pump out more oil to make up for the shortfall, and then you would be right - we will NOT be bankrupt by the next GE. But you (and the BN goverment) would just be winning the battle, while losing the war because you cannot see beyond the next election, the next recession, the next battle. It's okay for "small people" like us to worry about the immediate problems, but the government must think long term and see beyond the immediate, even beyond this COMING recession, and prepare for what lies BEYOND - rebuilding, adapting to the new world order, etc... Anyway, the crisis in Perak is really about who has the people's mandate. IMHO, just call for state elections and let the people decide. Why is BN so afraid about holding a state election anyway? If they are so confident about having the people's support, just call for elections and get it over with! Then whoever's elected, can get down to the business of governance!
Ah, my mistake then. My understanding was that the state provided funds to the local councils, and I assumed that it was a very large proportion, and had pretty much ignored about the local assessments (teaches a lesson for me to check my facts before stating them). However, after doing some more checks, state assemblies do provide grants to local councils and it amounts to 20% of local council funding comes from state and federal governments, so no, my point is still valid by simply the size of local and federal funding to local authorities. Probably not enough to stop rubbish collections, etc, etc, but repair potholes and stuff, those I can see getting affected. Though BN can do much by increasing funding to local councils from the federal government grants if PR does decide to shut the coffers. Source: Local Government in Asia and the Pacific - Malaysia When I referred to royalists, I referred to royalist Malaysians. People who grew up thinking Daulat Tuanku. Surely they do exist, and while their size can be debated, surely we'd want as many voters to vote PR in no? It's not merely a talking point, as I'm sure those people exist, but how big again remains to be known, as stated above. Sorry for the lack of a clear definition. Look, I don't have figures for oil money here, except for stating that oil money was not as big as it is right now, considering that it was around 20 USD or less barring the oil shocks of the past. It was probably, and since I don't have figures I can only say probably, a smaller figure than it is right now. I said I wanted you to show proof that this time is somehow different from the past when it comes to cronies draining the country. It doesn't need to be bulletproof, even circumstantial evidence will do. No need for hindsight in that really. I can name a few, and it wasn't in hindsight even when they were in the process of occuring, e.g. Perwaja for one. But you could argue that Badawi's projects tend to be much smaller scale and don't have the coverage like Mahathir's mega projects, hence it is much harder to produce circumstantial evidence, which probably would be true. Oh, the reserves falling. Conveniently, Anil Netto forgot to include 2007's figures which show a pretty large bump in reserves, no doubt due to the oil money. Also, note that the reserve figures have seemed to stabilise, though no conclusions can be drawn yet. I am not worried about the immediate problems, you are. I'm more concerned with that longer term 4 years time and after that outlook. I want a sustainable PR government, I don't want to see violent swings (to be clear, I define violent as in see sawing and a lot of political scrapping, and no real work being done) in changing governments, which tend to happen with massive landslides and the resulting disappointment leading to a counter swing. Both BN and PR want power, they're all the same, which is why BN doesn't want to hold elections. All governments, even PR would do that, so to claim it's somehow more unethical than what PR would do if it were in a similar position doesn't cut it with me. The thing is you want PR to have power now because you think it will lead to a better government now and later, while I am much more guarded about it because I fear a future backlash. So do you admit that your assertion that BN 'WILL' bankrupt the country is wrong then, or are we willing to take the long view and revisit this sometime in the future? Really, that's the main thrust of my argument against PR creating more hoo ha over this matter, and also my pretty evident dissatisfaction of the blanket will bankrupt Malaysia statement that you had made. That's my last contribution here, since we'll probably never agree. (p.s. it would really help if you weren't so condescending in your tone really when trying to make your points, thanks very much)
Brian, you should know me well enough to know that I was not being condescending. If I were condescending, would I even argue with you point by point? Remember - politics is very heady stuff. Everyone gets all fiery over it. This is just a discussion. It doesn't matter who "wins" or "loses" in any point because the ultimate goal (IMHO) is to explore the issue from different angles and see how the arguments hold up. I know folks who are very pro-government (heck, so was I once...), and we still have discussions/arguments like you and I. But we always leave it at the door. Arguing over such matters should NOT colour our opinions of other people. A nice bloke, for example, may be misguided but he's still a nice guy, and we don't hold his politics against him. Remember - the only thing that ultimately matters is our vote. We, the people, decide who should run our government in our elections. That, of course, got side-railed in Perak, but no matter what we agree or don't agree here, it doesn't matter one bit, I'm sure you will agree. Look, I didn't know you were so serious about this. This is just a friendly discussion, as far as I'm concerned. For one thing, I always thought you were one of the few people gutsy enough to debate all these "sensitive" issues. Heh... Well, frankly, I can go on and on about stuff like lopsided deals, overbudgeted construction projects awarded to companies with no experience, etc. etc. but I'm sure you have read all that. Nothing new, nothing's changed. I'm not here to argue over semantics - whether BN will truly bankrupt Malaysia or not. As a citizen, I pray you are RIGHT and they won't bankrupt the country. But as a tax-paying family man, I'm not willing to give them the benefit of doubt, not after 50+ years. Personally, I'm hoping for the best but preparing for the worst. Okay, with that, we end the debate. Let's just enjoy the show. Let's see what the heck BN and PR are going to do now... It looks like there will be quite a lot of drama in the coming weeks!
