Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : So the title doesn't reflect the actual content. Don't blame me, blame the writer. It is the same thing. Say the compensation comes directly from the vaccine manufacturer. They will just price it into their vaccines or drugs as the cost of doing business. Ultimately, it gets passed down to the consumer. You can repeat your claim a million times, but all it means is you don't understand that whether the compensation comes from a fund, or the vaccine companies directly - the bill is ultimately paid by the consumer. Adrian Wong : Steven Tang Lai Chuan : I'm not sure where you are going with this. How does it pertain to the question of whether vaccines cause autism? But generally, if the fever persists, then either there is still an infection, or the body thinks that it is still fighting an infection. Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : You have conveniently left out the sentence "This is the first report of grade III tetanus with protective levels of antibody in the United States." Such cases of patients contracting tetanus after being immunized is extremely rate. See how many cases you can dig up? BTW, being informed does not mean blindly accepting anything that is posted online. It means reading up and filtering out claims and judging solely on the facts. Apply logic too, especially if you cannot understand the science. In fact, in this issue of vaccines causing autism, logic is often the only thing you need to decide if vaccines do really cause autism : 1. Can the MMR vaccine cause autism as claimed by Andrew Wakefield if autism can be detected months before it is actually administered? 2. Is Andrew Wakefield really against vaccination if he actually developed his own monovalent vaccines and was hoping that they would replace the MMR vaccine after he proves them to be dangerous? 3. Is Andrew Wakefield really the only researcher in the world (out of tens of thousands who have investigated the link between vaccines and autism) who isn't being bribed by pharmaceutical companies? 4. If vaccines cause autism, then why do unvaccinated kids still end up autistic? 5. If vaccines cause autism, then why does the prevalence of autism remain the same in the unvaccinated community as the vaccinated community? 6. If adjuvants like thimerosal cause autism, then why does the prevalence of autism INCREASE even after those adjuvants were removed? 7. If the mercury in thimerosal cause autism, why doesn't mercury chelation therapy cure autism? 8. If mercury is the cause of autism, why don't we see a higher prevalence of autism in communities that consume a lot of fish and shellfish? 9. If mercury is the cause of autism, why isn't autism more common in the past when it was actually used as a disinfectant and laxative for children? 10. Vaccines are made from fragments or components of the infectious agent, or inactivated or weakened forms of the infectious agent. So if they cause autism, then getting infected by those disease will also cause autism. Adrian Wong : Shia Million : My pleasure. Do assure them that the medical and pharmaceutical industries are not mindless money making machines. Most of those who work in those industries are parents and many actually have autistic kids. So they are just as eager to find the cause and any potential fix or cure for it. If they do not understand the science, that's alright. Just ask them to consider the logical problems with the claims that the anti-vaccination proponents are coming up with : 1. Can the MMR vaccine cause autism as claimed by Andrew Wakefield if autism can be detected months before it is actually administered? 2. Is Andrew Wakefield really against vaccination if he actually developed his own monovalent vaccines and was hoping that they would replace the MMR vaccine after he proves them to be dangerous? 3. Is Andrew Wakefield really the only researcher in the world (out of tens of thousands who have investigated the link between vaccines and autism) who isn't being bribed by pharmaceutical companies? 4. If vaccines cause autism, then why do unvaccinated kids still end up autistic? 5. If vaccines cause autism, then why does the prevalence of autism remain the same in the unvaccinated community as the vaccinated community? 6. If adjuvants like thimerosal cause autism, then why does the prevalence of autism INCREASE even after those adjuvants were removed? 7. If the mercury in thimerosal cause autism, why doesn't mercury chelation therapy cure autism? 8. If mercury is the cause of autism, why don't we see a higher prevalence of autism in communities that consume a lot of fish and shellfish? 9. If mercury is the cause of autism, why isn't autism more common in the past when it was actually used as a disinfectant and laxative for children? 10. Vaccines are made from fragments or components of the infectious agent, or inactivated or weakened forms of the infectious agent. So if they cause autism, then getting infected by those disease will also cause autism. Steven Tang Lai Chuan : Adrian Wong. Yes. My question is related to this topic. So means that we shouldn't stop d fever even it has pass 40 + C ? Adrian Wong : No, if it's too high, it can cause fits and/or damage the brain.
Shia Million : Adrian Wong parents who do not believe in drugs and doctors. im curious to know how did they overcome simple illness like fever. have u come across such patients? so they will not give pcm? not afraid of febrile fits? Adrian Wong : Lots of them complain about how evil doctors are, or how the drugs do more harm than good, but they still come to the hospitals / clinics. Some will even demand medication when none is given but call the doctors stupid when they are given medication. All part and parcel of the profession today, I believe. Steven Tang Lai Chuan : Adrian Wong. A child I visited last week (I hv posted on RFT, came out in d newspaper as well). Dr. said brain damage cause by H1N1 virus infection. So if d body fell that there is a dangerous virus attacking our brain cells, d body keep on increase the temparature 40+ to fight d infection, otherwise d brain cell wil damage. But if v take medician to bring the temperature down, afraid the fever may cause brain damage. Then d body cannot raise up d temperature to fight against d virus. It may cauae brain cells damage too. So v should let the body to raise up d fever to fight against d virus or bring down d temperature of d body? Adrian Wong : It's too simplistic to look at it that way. The fever helps in certain infections, but not all. For example, if a bacteria replicates best at the normal body temperature, then raising the temperature may help to kill it or slow its replication. When it comes to viruses, it probably doesn't help much since viruses use the body's own cells to replicate. The body has to learn how to identify the virus and defeat it. That's why when it comes to viruses, vaccination (if possible) is important. It prepares the body to identify and defeat the virus from the onset. Steven Tang Lai Chuan : The problem is this kid has vacination jabs as advised by Dr. But why still cannot identify and defeat the virus and resulted the virus damage the brain cells? Adrian Wong : As I pointed out in earlier replies, the influenza virus mutates very rapidly, so seasonally, they change the formulation to target the most likely strains. Even so, the vaccine is only 66%-76% effective (more for adults and the elderly, less for children), because of this high variability. So the influenza vaccine does not guarantee you won't get it. It just means only 1/4 to 1/3 of people who were vaccinated will get infected. Jasmin Choy : I noticed kids who get chicken pox vax often get chicken pox anyways. And I also noticed younger kids who have or dont have chicken pox often have a mild attack. Teri Liew : Shia, my 4 kids have had very high fever. Because they r not vaccinated, I m comfortable to allow the high fever without any intervention with drugs. What I do instead is give them lots of water,.coconut water, vit c, vco. To aid the body to fight. I DON'T go to doctors for fevers, flu n cough. If need be, I go to a homeopath. My son's cough n high fever always can b cured in a day to a.week. Their feverusually 24 hours or up.to 3 days. N they always recover. I was a heavily medicated kid growing up. Sucks big time n it is a cycle. Sick well sick.well sick well every single month. If i.can help it, I won't put my.kids.thru what I went thru. Adrian Wong : Jasmin Choy : It's a known fact that the younger the patient, the milder the symptoms. The varicella vaccine, in any case, isn't a lifelong vaccine. Neither is the immunity from an actual chicken pox infection. However, the severity of any subsequent infections is minimal, whether one is immunized or not. More importantly, to address the point of this long, long thread... this doesn't prove that vaccines cause autism. Dallas Wong : Wow Adrian, I answered four of your questions, then I get 10 more, next 20? ...you're gonna keep bombarding me with questions to keep me busy, aren't you? Too bad for you, I'm not obligated to answer you. Some of your questions are similar but worded differently from the previous ones, so go watch the Dr. Russell Blaylock video I mentioned in my earlier comment. You'll get some answers there and may learn a thing or two from him as well. Happy watching! Dallas Wong : For the rest reading, here's an interesting short video clip: Do Vaccines Cause Autism? Do Vaccines Cause Autism? - YouTube When the hearings begins in November 2013, it will be interesting for those keeping up to date on this topic. Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : I don't expect you to respond. In fact, I'm pretty sure you have nothing substantial to contribute to the issue of whether vaccines cause autism. You have actually gone far afield in your attempt to prove that vaccines are bad. It's like you have a vendetta against vaccines. Still, you have yet to prove that vaccines could possibly cause autism. Oh, Blaylock again? The same Russell Blaylock who went around claiming that "health-care reform efforts under President Obama are masterminded by extragovernmental groups that wish to impose euthanasia" and that "the former Soviet Union tried to spread collectivism by covertly introducing illegal drugs and various sexually transmitted diseases into the United States". It's sad to see a medical professional go nuts like that, but that's life. Until Dr. Blaylock actually does ANY study to prove his points, I will have to put his opinions together with all those who are not backed by any study whatsoever under "Anecdotal reports / Unsubstantiated opinions". Now, if you have any contact with Dr. Blaylock, you can also ask him to address the logical problems I have posted. If he can answer them, then you have the answers with which you can counter my points. You can, of course, try to solve those conundrums I posed to you. They don't require you to have any medical knowledge, just common sense. You are welcomed to refuse to solve them, of course. But is it because you won't.. or you can't?
Raymond Wong : Your argument make no sense, we are all parents here , do we need to PROVE vaccines do not cause autism to not give vaccines to love ones ? Do I need to prove a suspicious looking fellow hanging around my house that he is a robber before I go lock my doors? The Big Pharmas employ in every country some doctors and Gov' officials with hefty payroll to speak out and even act for them, they are also trained to address issues just the way you have been doing, so thank you so much for a great display. I believe many here are fully enlighten and aware of where they should stand. As usual as I observed in other forums the paid spokeman must have the last word to prove his worth in paycheck so we shall give you this privilege. Dallas Wong : Well, Adrian, the medical authority is all in agreement that there is no evidence to link vaccines with autism. That, both you and I know. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence of risks. For many of those parents whose children are autistic after vaccinations and those who do their own research, we have formed our own opinions. Well, doctors who speak out against mainstream medicine are often termed "nuts", that's just normal, but the numbers are growing and it isn't just Dr. Blaylock who's speaking out. But what your thoughts are about him or others, I can't be bothered. If you look at my answers to your previous questions, and with some common sense that I hope you have, you will see that it will already have answered more than half of your new set of questions. Your questions centered around one ingredient - mercury. I have already answered that there could be many contributing factors to autism, but you seem to have ignored that. As such, I refuse to answer. Irene Wong : So you are saying absolutely nothing will happen with human diploid cells getting into our body? If it doesn't have effect on our DNA, what other effects it will have on our body? Yes, SV40. There, you have admitted that it was not detected previously, meaning that millions of people have been vaccinated by the contaminated batches before it was detected. What about other vaccines? Absolutely no contaminates at all or contaminants are yet to be detected because they don't even know where to begin because they don't know what contaminates the vaccines? With monkey/pig/chicken/human cells, who knows what kind of diseases they have.... Of course ingestion and injection are different. They are two totally different route of entry. Would you get yourself vaccinated with a SV40 contaminated vaccine since you say the cancer rate is the same? That's great news for me on the legal system! You sound very confident! Care to teach me how to win a case if I don't have a concrete evidence? Or maybe you can teach me how to fabricate the evidence so I can get awarded. Of course I know eating an apple with so much toxins in it is irrelevant to autism. I am just curious to know, will you eat it? Yes, as an adult I can understand the risk factors. That is why I am questioning the safety of vaccines, since they are marketed as safe but with a lot of side effects. And why do we have to ask then only doctors will tell? Why can't the doctors tell us upfront without being asked? Another thing is, the vaccine insert is not given before vaccinating, it is not given even after vaccinating. It is so true in what you say that NO DOCTORS WILL BE RESPONSIBLE if you suffered AEFI. It is us, parents, who will suffer, having taken vaccination, thinking that it will protect our children from vaccine preventable disease but somehow, got our children vaccine injured. Irene Wong : No mutation to genetic coding sequence when exposed to harmful substances huh! Now everyone can live beside a nuclear power plant. Adrian Wong : Raymond Wong : No, you don't have to prove anything. But if you make a ridiculous claim like "vaccines cause autism", then I expect you to back that up with evidence. I'm not going to risk my children's lives just because you claim that "vaccines cause autism". In your analogy, you don't have to prove that the suspicious person is a robber before you lock your doors. But that doesn't mean you get to go around telling your neighbours that he's a robber without confirming that he is a robber in the first place. What if he's just the postman, or someone who's just looking for a person in the neighbourhood? Well, if Big Pharma is paying people like me, I have to give them a ring in the morning because I never received even a single cent from them to date. But even if, hypothetically, Big Pharma did employ me to speak on their behalf - can I change facts? Can I make illogical things logical? Can I turn back time? Can I change history? There's no need to give me any privilege. If you wish to withdraw because you are unable to answer even one of the 10 logic problems I posed to you, then withdraw by all means. But don't say that it's because I'm paid to do this. That's an accusation I think is most unbecoming of any person, since you have absolutely no idea who I am, or what work I do. Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : Don't confuse yourself with evidence vs. risks. Start with the 10 logic problems I posed. You don't have to answer them all, just whatever you can. Then we can talk science, if you are up to it. I'm sure you have. I'm here to tell you that you are wrong. It's not that he's nuts because he spoke out against mainstream medicine. He is nuts because he made claims that have been proven to be wrong. I quoted the two non-medical examples because they are so easily disproved with simple research. If there are other doctors who are making the same claims, well, let's hear them out. But it's not their opinion that I value, but the studies that they have done. If they actually did a study that say, proves that a particular vaccine isn't as effective as supposed, or has a bad side effect (both have happened before), then not only I, but the entire medical establishment would pay attention, because this is real data. I'm not ignoring you. My questions are not centered around mercury but the most common arguments anti-vaxxers present. If you agree that mercury isn't the cause, then ignore those questions and answer the others.
Raymond Wong : Adrian, you will have your final say don't worry, your behavior have been very well manifested, we know. I am not here to prove nor claim, we, as I believe can speak for many are here to 'know' if vaccines cause autism and more. We Malaysians can never prove who kill TBH and Altantuya but we know. ....and... you do know too heh? You are so into proving this and that , can you show me an experiment that prove vaccine can prevent the desease it is meant for? So far they only publish stats of desease increase/decline but that is no proof. Are there an experiment where 30 kids were injected a vaccine and 3 days later walk in to a room filled with infected ppl and show they walk out scot free. As far as I know, there is none. Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : I've already said it many times. Injecting foreign DNA into our body won't change our DNA. If you disagree, then please explain how. Stop asking me repeatedly if it will change our DNA. I've already said - NO. Admitted? It's historical record lah. It was not detected before 1961 because there was no PCR. But as I have pointed out - it was a contamination that affected certain batches of the vaccine. What about other vaccines? Do they get contaminated? Some do. Can they get contaminated? Of course. Everything we make can get contaminated - from food to toys. Does this mean we should stop eating food because they can be contaminated? Yes, who knows indeed. Well, who knows what contaminants are in our foods. Do YOU know? Obviously, you don't because you are still eating food. Of course, I would like to take the opportunity to point out that is why modern vaccines are so safe. The vaccines are now filtered so well that the 11 vaccines that we give our children have less than 130 antigens. Compare that to the 3000+ antigens present in the 5 old vaccines. The great reduction in antigens prove that today's vaccines are much, much cleaner than in the past. LOL! I think I've already pointed that out by mentioning that there are two types of polio vaccines - the more common oral polio vaccine and the injectable one. Most children in those days and even today take the oral polio vaccine. No, why should anyone? Seriously, the kind of questions you ask are ridiculous. If you know that a piece of organic vegetable is contaminated with your own boogers, would you eat it? After all, it is supposed to be safe, isn't it? Sorry, you claim that they are marketed as safe but have a lot of side effects. You are misrepresenting them - that's a polite way of saying that you are fibbing. Anyone who claims to have done research can easily pull up the manufacturer's information sheet which lists everything from contents of the vaccine to its efficacy and side effects. So any informed person would know that like everything in life, it's a matter of ensuring that the benefits outweigh the risks. Absolutely true. If you have a problem with that, I suggest you also do not fly in airplanes, drive a car or go to school, because no one in any industry can guarantee that they will be responsible for any harm that may come to you from any activity you take under their care. Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : Now, let's not go into outright lies. When did anyone say anything about nuclear plants? Your theory is that the injection of foreign DNA into our body will change our DNA. Not the presence of radioactivity will change our DNA. Adrian Wong : Raymond Wong : Of course you are not here to prove or claim. You are here just to launch ad hominem attacks. That much is obvious. Of course, which is why the legal process cannot be used as a gauge for truth. But what you and I believe is the truth in the TBH and Altantuya case is predicated on facts - where they were, when they were there, who else was there, etc. Those facts cannot change. That's why I posted those logical problems. These are not scientific problems but LOGICAL problems. It's like accusing X of killing Y but if X was not in the country at the same time as Y, how did X kill Y? So even in the TBH and Altantuya cases, our suspicions are limited to those who can POSSIBLY kill them, or order their killing. You wouldn't be accusing say.. Bill Clinton or Anita Sarawak of wanting either one of them dead, would you? Raymond, to get approval for a vaccine, the vaccine manufacturer must first prove that the vaccine works. There are several stages to this process but there are always human trials where they test not only its effectiveness but also any potential side effects. So every approved vaccine would have human studies done to demonstrate its efficacy. Raymond Wong : Please show us. Irene Wong : If u read my question correctly, I am now asking what other effects human diploid cells have effect on our body if it doesn't affect DNA. Is there any other effects or none at all? I can understand that u might not read my question properly, having have to read so many comments at one go. Yes, it was a historical record. It was not detected before 1961. I wonder how many more contaminants that are not detected in the vaccines before they get detected. Of course everything in this world gets contaminated including vaccines. If I know what contaminates my food, I wouldn't eat it, just like you said you wouldn't eat an apple that is contaminated with your own boogers as you put it. And FYI, most of the vegetables I eat really are organic, grown from own backyard and I eat free range chicken, thanks to my in laws. Yes, the two types of polio vaccine, OPV and IPV. I hope that when you say children of today that take oral polio vaccine is not Malaysians, certainly not Americans, because OPV has been banned in the US since year 2000 and since been replaced by IPV. And Malaysia has been declared polio free since year 2000. When u say that I am fibbing, are you saying that vaccines are never marketed as safe? Sure, the phrase always goes like this - the benefits outweighs the risks. How exactly the benefits outweighed the risks if you have a vaccine injured child? Of course I know no one will be responsible for my child. But your statement "if you have a problem with that, I suggest you do not fly in airplanes, drive a car or go to school, because no one in any industry can guarantee that they will be responsible for any harm that may come to you from any activity you take under their care" coming out from you, a doctor, that doesn't sound too good. Anyways, you haven't tell me how to fabricate an evidence and how to win damages without a concrete evidence, since u so confidently say that the legal system is flawed, that was the reason that families get compensated for their vaccine injured children. My question was will exposure to harmful substances change our genetic coding sequence and you said no, right? Then radiation will not change anything because radiation is also harmful substance. What lies did I say? Irene Wong : Seriously, doctor, the ingredients in the apple that I mentioned, trace amount of thimerosal, aluminum, formaldehyde, neomycin, monkey/pig//cow/human cells, which you won't eat (neither do I!), they are the ingredients of vaccines. If you are not okay ingesting them, what makes it okay for them being injected? Irene Wong : Which comes to a very funny scenario that I can think of - I wonder what is the safety protocol if I were to drop a vaccine onto the floor, and it breaks, with all the contents spilled on the floor?
Raymond Wong : "In your analogy, you don't have to prove that the suspicious person is a robber before you lock your doors. But that doesn't mean you get to go around telling your neighbours that he's a robber without confirming that he is a robber in the first place. What if he's just the postman, or someone who's just looking for a person in the neighbourhood" No I don't go round telling he is a robber but I go round telling my friends and neighbor to lock the door. Oh ya, now that robbers dressed up as police and doctors too. Alice LeeMyles : In some cases, there are unethical doctors out there looking to make money in many ways, and/or not interested in listening to their patients when it comes to patients reporting side effects to their doctors, and there are drugs that do more harm than good. And please don't forget the numbers of patients who are undiagnosed or misdiagnosed..etc. So yea it's all part and parcel. Adrian Wong : Raymond Wong : Here's an example. You can search for the others in your own free time. Developments in the production and quality contr... [Biologicals. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI Developments in the production and quality control of poliovirus vaccines -- historical perspectives. "By 1959 several candidate live oral poliovirus vaccines (OPV) had been developed. These were clinically tested in millions of individuals and found to be safe and effective. Since the attenuated virus strains developed by Koprowski and Cox were more neurotropic in monkeys than the Sabin strains, only the latter was licensed in the USA in 1961 and endorsed shortly after by the World Health Organization (WHO)." Dallas Wong : Yea, but the OPV seems to be causing the problem it's suppose to prevent... Which is why we, parents are questioning the term used by vaccine pushers when they say "safe and effective"... Polio in Nigeria Traced to Mutating Vaccine http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/world/africa/11polio.html Polio vaccine blamed for outbreaks in Nigeria Polio vaccine blamed for outbreaks in Nigeria - Health - Infectious diseases | NBC News India: Paralysis cases soar after oral polio vaccine Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : If you read my answer properly, you will notice that I'm ignoring you. That's because every time you lose a point, you bring in a new point. It never ends. What's next? I'll bet you will ask me - "So tell me - will living next to a nuclear reactor change our DNA?" None of your questions have any bearing whatsoever whether vaccines cause autism or not. Heck, they are not even logical because you are just making them up as you go along. Like this one that you are persisting with - the injection of human diploid cells. You don't seem to understand that they are used to produce the vaccine. They aren't actually injected into the body. But still, you come up with this idea and ask me to answer you. How to answer a question that doesn't even make sense? Why not ask me if injecting organic food into the body is okay? You may wonder, of course, whether there are any more contaminants in vaccines while the pharmaceutical industry actually does the work of making sure there are no more contaminants. But as I pointed out - every industry runs the risk of contamination. This isn't intentional. Everything is at risk of contamination, even organic foods, raw milk, and if you read the newspapers recently - home-cooked ayam masak merah. So to deny vaccines simply because they (like everything else) has the risk of contamination is absurd. Now you are making some sense. No one in the right mind would eat food that they knew was contaminated. But what if you didn't know your food was contaminated? Did anyone know that the polio vaccine was contaminated with SV40? Of course, they didn't. Would they have administered the vaccine if they did? Of course, not. They destroyed all remaining SV40-tainted vaccines. What you are advocating now is not for people to stop eating contaminated organic food. You are telling people to stop eating organic food period because they COULD be contaminated, because there has been cases of contamination. By your own logic, organic foods are bad because of the potential of contamination. Actually, the OPV was not banned in the US, just discontinued. This is because OPV and IPV serve different purposes. The OPV is better for preventing wild polio variants but the IPV is safer in that it has no risk of reverting to its virulent form because it's inactivated. So it's a matter of deciding which is more appropriate for the local situation. Since the US is well vaccinated against polio and the incidence of wild polio was last recorded in 1979, the risk of being infected with a wild variant is exceedingly small. That's why they decided to switch to IPV in 2000. But in the rest of the world where polio is still endemic, OPV is used because it is better at preventing polio and it confers lifelong immunity. Malaysia was declared polio-free by the WHO in October 2000 but that doesn't mean vaccination can stop. That's because they have not yet eradicated polio across the world. If they succeed in doing that, then the polio vaccine would no longer be required for future children. Just like the smallpox vaccine. FYI, Malaysia was actually polio free from 1983 onwards but because some parents refused vaccination for their children, a few cases cropped up over the years. It was only in 2000 where we were finally able to be free from polio for what.. 6-7 years? When I said you were fibbing, it refers to the whole sentence - "That is why I am questioning the safety of vaccines, since they are marketed as safe but with a lot of side effects." Vaccines do not really have a lot of side effects. They are, by FDA ruling, required to list down all of those that were detected in human trials and even after that, but they may include those that have not been confirmed to be due to the vaccine but were added in an abundance of caution. If you look at the list of common side effects, they are either short or mild in nature. So to convey the idea that the industry is lying about the safety of the vaccine is absurd. At least they are being regulated. Can you say the same about the supplements industry? Do you even know what goes into your supplements? Are you sure there are constant QC checks? Is there even a list of side effects? Did they even check for potential side effects? Of course, it doesn't sound good, but that's the truth. If you want certainty, well, there are only two things certain in life - death and taxes. Sorry, but I don't know how to fabricate evidence. I only know how to present evidence. But I say you are doing quite well in this area. What lies did you say? You just repeated it by saying that I said that exposure to harmful substances won't change our genetic makeup. I never said that. You asked if injecting foreign DNA into our body can change our DNA. I said no. I never said anything other than that. You are putting words in my mouth, and you have the temerity to repeat it? Like I said, you are doing well as far as making things up goes...
Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : There you go again, making things up. Thimerosal has not been used in almost all vaccines for years now. The other trace amounts of formaldehyde and neomycin are only present in certain vaccines, not all. All those cells you mentioned aren't actually present in the vaccines - they were used to make the vaccines. But hypothetically if you inject the quantites used in vaccines into an apple, I wouldn't have a problem eating such an apple. Now what will ask me next? Will I eat an apple if you inject the contents of all 11 vaccines into it? Adrian Wong : Raymond Wong : Yes, you can do that. But imagine how stupid you would appear if that person is a doctor making a house call. By telling your neighbours to lock their doors because that man is a robber, you may put someone at risk because no one would answer the door. I'm not saying that vaccines are perfect, that they are without risks. But I'm telling you that it is ridiculous for you to brand them all as bad, especially when the evidence doesn't say so. It will end up like a case of The Boy Who Cried Wolf. By coming up with ridiculous analogies to prove that it's better not to take vaccines because it could be bad (even though the evidence says otherwise), who's going to listen to you when you actually come up with a legitimate concern about a bad vaccine? Cathryn Seet : Interesting topic. Diana Yen Cecelia Ho Adrian Wong : Alice LeeMyles : Of course, there are always unethical doctors who are looking to make money in many ways. Just like there are unethical politicians, unethical police officers, unethical government servants, unethical teachers, unethical businessmen, unethical salespeople, etc. This is human nature. But please do not associate ethics with your requirement that doctors must listen to you. When you consult a doctor, you are paying him for his expertise and his experience in diagnosing your medical problem and treating them (if possible). Similarly, when I send my car to get it repaired, I do not teach my mechanic what to do. I expect him to diagnose the problem and come back to me about what the problem is, and what can be done. If I do not trust him (hey, there are unethical mechanics too!), then I would get a second or third opinion. This is the same thing when it comes to consulting doctors. You should always get a second or third opinion if you are not comfortable with any doctor. The reason why I'm telling you this is because doctors (like mechanics) have to consider what they learned and the large body of studies done on these vaccines or drugs. You may insist that the side effect that you are experiencing is from the drug he gave (for example), but it could very well be unrelated to the drug. Or it may be an unexpected interaction between the drug and supplements / herbs that you took. Irrespective of the reason, a doctor's main concern is how to heal you. It's not to harm you. No one goes through 6 years of medical school and 4-5 years of government service to do that. As for drugs doing more harm than good, I find that very hard to believe. Such a drug would never be approved by the US FDA because one of the requirements for approval is that it must be efficacious. Misdiagnosis, like passing bad legal judgements in court, is all part and parcel of being human. But at least in the medical industry, diagnosis is often supported by lab or radiological investigations which help to minimize misdiagnosis. There are also legal avenues to seek compensation or justice if there's malpractice. But if you get screwed by the courts, where do you seek justice? Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : As I pointed out, OPV may be more effective but it has the risk of reverting to its virulent form. That's why in communities where polio has largely been eradicated, they switch to IPV. Malaysia already switched to IPV since 2009. As I told you many times before, there are no guarantees in life. When anyone tells you it's safe and effective, they mean that in the context of benefits vs. risks. If polio is endemic in your community, the risks of OPV reverting to its virulent form is FAR, FAR LOWER than the risks of a child getting polio. If you check, the risk of VAPP is just 1 in 750,000 children once in their lifetime. Compare that to the risk of being infected - about 1 in 3,700 ANNUALLY. But once it's eradicated in a community, then they switch to IPV, which is less effective but safer. The idea though is to eradicate it worldwide. Then there won't be any need for the vaccine. But for that to happen, we have to keep the vaccination rates high (above 95%). If you guys want a vaccine free world, well, help us help you. Keep vaccination rates high so we can get rid of diseases like polio. Then there won't be a need for vaccines. Cathryn Seet : Luyi Tey u shud read this. Luyi Tey : Try talking to a 50yr old above ppl.. How many life's has lost to small pox? If small pox is goin to hit hard n real hard again... Thanks to all anti-vaxer... apparently all facts has been voice out by dr. Adrian... But some ppl jz choose wat to go into their brain Raymond Wong : Adrian , I am still waiting for your claim evidence that vaccine works, imagine how stupid you will look after so many strong statements you made and the final evidence you cannot show. You are beginning to sound like the sonkolong lawyer who question Pornthip.. Raymond Wong : Luyi, I am 60+ and in my town nobody was lost through small pox. Dallas Wong : Luyi, have you ever questioned the smallpox eradication claim, that vaccines are responsible? Did you just believed the claim or did you find proof that this is true? Cos if you believed without finding out, then this sentence which you speak "But some ppl jz choose wat to go into their brain", really applies to you!
Dallas Wong : Adrian, that depends on the news you read...here's an interesting one: “One is the problem of non-polio paralysis. Where we would have expected some 2,500 cases last year, there were 61,000 children with this paralysis. And in areas where there were more immunization with the polio vaccine, there had been more cases of this non-polio paralysis.” (start at around 6:10) BBC World News - Discussion on Polio on Impact BBC World News - Discussion on Polio on Impact - YouTube In fact, to make vaccines look good in decreasing polio, they choose certain strains to count or not to count when it comes to polio outbreaks... "Detecting VDPV is part of the surveillance system but only infections caused by wild polio virus strains like P1 and P3 are counted while declaring a country polio-free, and not a P2 strain which is caused by the oral polio vaccine and hence causes VDPV infection." - (WHO investigating Maharashtra?s polio case - The Hindu) Irene Wong : LOL!!! Adrian, Adrian, if you can read in between the lines, that statement wasn't addressed to you, nor I am expecting a reply from you as you have stated that it doesn't change anything. And no, if you are able to read in between the lines, you should know that with that statement, I wont ask another. Whether my questions have any bearings to whether vaccines cause autism, or if I indeed losing points, it is up to the interpretation of the readers, so yeah, how you interpret them it's your freedom. Of course I know that the cells are used to culture the bacterias/viruses. You see, you failed to listen to my concern. Let me try to rephrase it again in a more detailed sentence to the best I can. Chicken embryos are used to culture mumps and measles. If by injecting MMR, some of the egg protein goes into your body and causes an allergy to eggs, what do you think happens when human diploid cells that is used to culture rubella, some of its DNA (or whatever you technical junkies called it) goes into your body? Of course, of course, everytime when I mentioned that there are risks of contamination, you always link it to another industries having risks too. Aren't you diverting the attention of the issue of contaminated vaccines? For what? So that vaccine looks good? Since other industries also have risks, kan? Of course contaminants aren't intentional. Unless if you want to kill somebody intentionally. Of course I have been making sense. No one will want contaminated stuffs if they know they were contaminated. No, I did not tell people not to vaccinate. It is you who thinks I am. In fact, u labelled me an angry anti vaxer. You see, by you deciding that I am an anti vaxer from the beginning, you have already been biased in your interpretation of my statements. But then again, how you interpret them, it's your freedom. People like are trained to put a smoke screen on the negative effects of vaccines, like OPV, which causes the problem it was supposed to prevent. But of course, people like you will say getting paralysis from the wild polio virus in a natural setting and getting one from OPV are totally different. Yes, common and mild, but rare doesn't mean zero. Of course the truth doesn't so good, because in reality no one will be responsible for my child. Whether you vaccinate or not, it goes both ways. Either you come out alive or u can't. So yeah, deaths are certain. And no, I did not put words into your mouth. It was stated in your reply where you quoted my question with a big no. And finally, with the fact that the court award damages to vaccine injured children, autism in this case, you had adamantly telling me that the law is flawed because law is not science, and by quoting LGE and Altantuya, you are telling me, loud and clear, that law is flawed. So you see, even when the court finds that there is indeed a link, doesn't matter that the families have to prove a concrete case and within the timeline, and fought for years before they get awarded, you will still deny it. Of course, hypothethically, you will eat it, but in reality you won't, just like you said based on a research, babies can safely take up to 11 vaccines at the same time, but you did not do that on your child, well, because you follow the vaccination schedule, the protocol. So what's the safety protocol if I were to drop a vaccine onto the floor and its contents spilled out? But seriously, when you do actually eat the contaminated apple please let us know in advance. I am sure a lot of us are interested to watch it live. Adrian Wong : Raymond Wong : I've already posted you an example. Can you blame me if you didn't notice it? Raymond Wong : Wow, an example you call evidence, now you really looks like the sonkolong lawyer that question Pornthip. You not only make yourself stupid , everybody who read your stuffs will feel stupid. Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : Smallpox has infected and killed people for thousands of years. Today, there's not even a case of smallpox in the wild. What was the reason? Miracle? Prayers? Or the smallpox vaccine? If you think there's some other reason for the eradication of smallpox worldwide, please do explain. As for Glen Dettman's claims, it shows that he doesn't know much about the smallpox virus, or how the vaccine program eradicated it. Dallas Wong : Adrian, "Today, there's not even a case of smallpox in the wild. What was the reason? Miracle? Prayers? Or the smallpox vaccine?" Wasn't it you who said Correlation does not equal causation? So what makes you think it was the vaccine? You've already agreed in previous comment that improvements in sanitation and hygiene contributed a lot to the decline in deaths from infectious diseases before there were mass vaccination. As for the vaccine, apparently, it spreads the smallpox, which again brings up the question of efficacy: “The Indiana toddler developed a rare rash known as eczema vaccinatum after playing with his father, a soldier vaccinated for deployment in Iraq...” Toddler survives smallpox vaccine reaction Toddler survives smallpox vaccine reaction | Reuters Well, it seems you are a person who believes in evidence. If you think Glen Dettman's claim is wrong, show evidence to proof otherwise? What is the % of population vaccinated? Did vaccine really eradicated smallpox? After all, it's not right for you to come in here demanding everyone for evidence for the claim that vaccine causes autism, but then totally ignoring one where WHO claimed that vaccine has eradicated smallpox... Raymond Wong : Oh my, stupidity knows no bound, death from arrows and spears have been inflicting humans for thousands of years too now that it is non existence thanks to vaccinations too.
Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : I think you need to do more than just read. You need to understand what's being said. 1. It is a fact that OPV can cause VAPP. The incidence is 1 in 750,000. 2. The more OPV vaccinations are performed, the higher the number of VAPP cases. The percentage will stay the same, just the actual number of cases would increase proportionally. 3. The BBC news report actually mentions NON-POLIO paralysis, which you also posted. Therefore, the paralysis is not attributed to either a polio infection or VAPP. AFP (acute flaccid paralysis) is a catchall term for paralysis that occurs due to a variety of reasons - from polio to Guillain-Barré syndrome. If you are vaccinated against polio, it only protects you against one cause of AFP. It doesn't mean you are free from the risk of AFP from other causes. It's like wearing a bulletproof vest protects you from bullets of a pistol but not bullets from a sniper rifle, or from the flame of a flamethrower. Of course, they wouldn't count the VAPP cases as polio infections. Logic lah... because they were due to the administration of the vaccine which mutated. If there is a worldwide absence of WILD polio infections, then they would switch everyone to the IPV, which would automatically stop these VAPP cases. And after some time has passed, they will stop all vaccinations before polio would have been eradicated. Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : If you say so, Irene... You do? Really? Then why are you asking me if it's okay to inject human diploid cells into our body? Let me quote you just to be clear : Irene Wong : "So you are saying absolutely nothing will happen with human diploid cells getting into our body?" Irene Wong : " I am now asking what other effects human diploid cells have effect on our body if it doesn't affect DNA." Irene Wong : "Seriously, doctor, the ingredients in the apple that I mentioned, trace amount of thimerosal, aluminum, formaldehyde, neomycin, monkey/pig//cow/human cells, which you won't eat (neither do I!), they are the ingredients of vaccines." You have been very clear that your concern is about injecting human diploid cells into our body. As I pointed out - that's not happening. As I also pointed out - we get into contact with foreign DNA all the time, including injections of it. So unless you are coming back to the same old fairy tale about foreign DNA changing our DNA and turning us into MosquitoMan or SpiderMan, I think we can both agree that this doesn't happen. No, I'm not diverting attention from anything, just pointing out the realities of life. If you find the possibility of contamination in vaccines so fearful, you should be even more fearful about contamination of foods that we eat every day. Vaccines are taken only a few times in our lifetime, but food - we eat everyday, right? You are an anti-vaxxer, Irene. You have denied every point I made about vaccines before I called you an anti-vaxxer, even though they are backed by facts. And you are angry and indignant about what you perceive to be a personal attack on your values. This isn't about you or I, Irene. This is about the truth. Vaccines are not perfect. They have side effects and risks. No one, much less I, have ever said that it's risk free (there's NO such thing in this world). But if we truly weigh the benefits vs. the risks, this is as good as a slam dunk. Our ancestors never had the chance and many died or suffered. Our children don't need to. It's that simple. What smoke screen are we pulling? The statistics and the reports have all been published openly. If the industry wants to stifle discussion on this, I'm sure they would have done a much better job of it. Paralysis is paralysis, whether it's from a wild infection or OPV. But that is not the point of polio vaccination. VAPP strikes 1 in 750,000 vaccinations and this is only once in a child's lifetime. Polio virus strikes about 1 in 3,700 people PER YEAR. In 10 years, 1 in 370 people would have been infected. So this is all about risk management. If our community has endemic polio, would you choose between the risk of getting a wild infection (1 in 3,700 per year) or the risk of getting a VAPP from the OPV vaccine (1 in 750,000)? The truth is the truth. Not being responsible for your child does not mean we do not care. It means you cannot simply blame other people for events that are out of their control. Is it really the doctor's fault if they vaccinate your child and he/she develops VAPP? Yes, you did put words in my mouth. I never once mentioned nuclear reactor. You brought it up because you lost in your point about foreign DNA changing our DNA, and you tried to pass it off as part of your "earlier" claim that dangerous substances can change our DNA (which you did not make until recently). I didn't say the law was flawed. I said that the legal process is no substitute for actual science. The court CANNOT possibly find a link between vaccines and autism because the court has no capability to do so. It bases its rules on the law and arguments from both sides. It may not even make any ruling, if the defence agrees to a settlement to save time and money. As you have clearly seen, the courts may rule that the two policemen didn't kill her but is that really the truth? After all, they admitted to the fact. So what's decided legally is not always the truth. There's really no need for all these hypothetical questions. Do you know that the average toothbrush has millions of bacteria, including those that were deposited by aerosol spray every time you flush the toilet? Do you also know that you consume more mercury in a serving of fish like tuna or grouper than a vaccine? Do you know that fruits and vegetables contain formaldehyde? Do you know that our own body produces formaldehyde? Do you know that we are constantly exposed to aluminium in our foods? So whether you know it or not, we have ALL eaten that hypothetical apple you are so obsessed about.
Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : Indeed, I did. But it was you who made the claim that it cannot be the smallpox vaccine. So you should first explain what you think could be the other reason why smallpox was eradicated, and provide the evidence to support it. Right now, you don't even have correlation much less causation. Joseph Lister popularized antiseptics in 1867. Infectious rates dropped. But do you know that Edward Jenner popularized the smallpox vaccine about 70 years BEFORE that - in 1797-1798? So without the benefit of antiseptic or even the idea that sanitation and hygiene helps reduce infections, the smallpox vaccine was already saving lives. There you go again - reading without understanding. First of all, the smallpox vaccine does NOT use the smallpox virus but a related virus called vaccinia. So there is NO WAY the vaccine can give you a smallpox infection. Infecting someone with this virus (which is what the vaccine does) gives the person mild symptoms like rashes and/or fever or no symptoms at all but confers immunity to smallpox. However, it should not be given to anyone with eczema or other skin diseases. This is a known complication. So just because it happened to the boy does not mean it will happen to just anyone. You will also note that the smallpox vaccine is no longer given out to the civilian population. Not right? What's not right is that you constantly demand evidence from me (and I have furnished them) and yet, you constantly avoid furnishing any evidence to make up your ridiculous claims. Instead, you quote me all sorts of people making claims. That's not evidence. LOL. What you need to do is read up on smallpox eradication - Smallpox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Then you will understand why 95% or even 100% vaccination is not necessary. The smallpox virus is different from other viruses. So you cannot judge the eradication of the other viruses by the same yardstick as smallpox. It is a much easier virus to eradicate. Adrian Wong Raymond Wong : I'll have to agree with you. After all, arrows and spears have been replaced by guns and grenades for some time now. People are still dying from wars. Vaccination obviously cannot help. Vaccines are not gods. Raymond Wong : Hmm.. you are carefully avoiding to answer my question of evidence, why? Your necktie is hanging you now? Adrian Wong : Raymond Wong : I've already posted it up there. Go read it. After you are done, you might want to try answering any of the 10 logic problems I posted before. You might also want to try posting some evidence of what you claim. Unless, of course, you accede to the evidence I presented above. Raymond Wong : hmm, so this is the way you avoid evidence, example as evidence, statistic as proof. thank you again for making such a good show I am sure the Big Pharma will reward you well with a big paycheck and a holiday in the Bahamas. I don't need to prove anything , you are selling something , I am not. It is your job to prove to us. Your logic is sonkolong lawyer logic, good for a good laugh. Pornthip will love to see this.. Dallas Wong : Adrian, there you go again, always assuming, that I didn't read up about the history of smallpox. By the way, Adrian, history is not proof that the vaccine works, especially when it depends on who wrote it. The claim here is that smallpox was eradicated by vaccine and your justification is that because there's no smallpox today. That is correlation and it does not imply causation. If you're not able to provide evidence, just say so and stop beating around the bush. Here's a different account on the history of smallpox: Immunity, Infectious Disease, and Vaccination by Dr. Raymond Obomsawin 371 - Immunity, Infectious Disease, and Vaccination - Raymond Obomsawin - YouTube I'm still waiting. "Not right? What's not right is that you constantly demand evidence from me" Wasn't it you who came in here expecting everyone to answer to your demand for evidence or answering your questions as you please? C'mon... "Then you will understand why 95% or even 100% vaccination is not necessary." I'm guessing here you made a spelling error (not = now) Anyway, here are some interesting cases of outbreaks in situation where there's a vaccine coverage of over 95%. Plenty more examples if you search around. ----- “Fourteen of 74 seronegative students, all of whom had been vaccinated, contracted measles.” “We conclude that outbreaks of measles can occur in secondary schools, even when more than 99 percent of the students have been vaccinated and more than 95 percent are immune.” Measles Outbreak in a Fully Immunized Secondary-School Population Measles outbreak in a fully immunized secondary... [N Engl J Med. 1987] - PubMed - NCBI ----- “An outbreak of measles occurred in a high school with a documented vaccination level of 98 per cent.” “Nineteen (70 per cent) of the cases were students who had histories of measles vaccination at 12 months of age or older and are therefore considered vaccine failures.” Measles outbreak in a vaccinated school population: epidemiology, chains of transmission and the role of vaccine failures. Measles outbreak in a vaccinated school population: epidemiology, chains of transmission and the role of vaccine failures. ----- “A total of 64 (82.1%) of the 78 patients on the reservation who were born after 1956 and were above the recommended age at vaccination had a history of adequate measles vaccination.” “...98.7% of students were appropriately vaccinated.” A persistent outbreak of measles despite appropriate prevention and control measures A persistent outbreak of measles despite appr... [Am J Epidemiol. 1987] - PubMed - NCBI ----- “The effects of whole-cell pertussis vaccine wane after 5 to 10 years, and infection in a vaccinated person causes nonspecific symptoms.” “Therefore, even young, recently vaccinated children may serve as reservoirs and potential transmitters of infection.” Pertussis Infection in Fully Vaccinated Children in Day-Care Centers, Israel Pertussis Infection in Fully Vaccinated Children in Day-Care Centers, Israel - Vol. 6 No. 5 - October 2000 - Emerging Infectious Disease journal - CDC ----- “...even in a population with 96% vaccination coverage, as was the case with participants in the summer camp, a mumps outbreak can result from exposure to virus imported from a country with an ongoing mumps epidemic.” “20 of the 31 people infected (65%) of the people infected were vaccinated.” Mumps Outbreak at a Summer Camp --- New York, 2005 Mumps Outbreak at a Summer Camp --- New York, 2005 ----- “All cases are in UR students with a documented history of two doses of mumps-containing vaccine.” All cases are in UR students with a documented history of two doses of mumps-containing vaccine. Monmouth County Regional Health Commission ----- “Vaccination information was available for 871 (99%) of the 880 children. Varicella vaccination coverage was 97% (2-dose, 39%; 1-dose, 58%).” An outbreak of varicella in elementary school children with two-dose varicella vaccine recipients--Arkansas, 2006 An outbreak of varicella in elementary ... [Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI ----- So much for herd immunity, huh?
Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : There you go again - reading without understanding. I didn't say you didn't read about smallpox or any of the topics. I said you read WITHOUT understanding them. That's why you keep making mistakes. No, as the vaccination process shows, everyone who was vaccinated against smallpox didn't get smallpox. So that's causation right there. And your idea that it was hygiene and sanitation that eradicated smallpox was debunked by the fact that smallpox vaccination already prevented infections and saved lives 70 YEARS BEFORE antiseptics were first popularized by Joseph Lister. There's no typo. There wasn't a necessity to blanket everyone with smallpox vaccine because the only host is human and there are no carriers. Like I said - the smallpox virus is different from other viruses. Understand what you are reading. Well, herd immunity isn't perfect. Which is why if possible, vaccination should try to be 100%. Raymond Wong : Hello , I am still here as you ask me to...answer my questions. Adrian Wong : Raymond Wong : Still waiting? Man, you are SO lazy! Here, I will repost it for your benefit : ---------- Here's an example. You can search for the others in your own free time. Developments in the production and quality contr... [Biologicals. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI Developments in the production and quality control of poliovirus vaccines -- historical perspectives. "By 1959 several candidate live oral poliovirus vaccines (OPV) had been developed. These were clinically tested in millions of individuals and found to be safe and effective. Since the attenuated virus strains developed by Koprowski and Cox were more neurotropic in monkeys than the Sabin strains, only the latter was licensed in the USA in 1961 and endorsed shortly after by the World Health Organization (WHO)." Adrian Wong : BTW, am I selling you something? Vaccines? How is it selling if it's FREE in the first place? Am I selling you a cure? Supplements? Miracles? No. I'm merely listing out the facts about vaccines. It doesn't matter if you want to believe them or not, because they will still remain true. Irene Wong : Whoa! I love free stuffs! What is free??? The opinions or vaccines??? Raymond Wong : Oh so you are the one not reading.. I don't need to answer you anything , we are the buyer you are the seller . You are the one that need to prove to us . I don't need evidence to suspend uses of vaccines. You are the one who said you have evidence and when ask for it you have been avoiding since. If I need to prove anything I only need to prove I got money to pay and a backside for you to inject .. .....and I am still waiting for your evidence.. Irene Wong : By the way, if I choose to travel by train, does that make me an anti car person? LOL Dallas Wong : Well, there you go again, assuming. Those who was vaccinated did get the smallpox according to Dr. Raymond Obomsawin (around 14:53) as well as others. So you see, there are conflicting reports. At the end of the day, smallpox eradication through vaccines is a claim. What has your example of polio got to do with what we're talking about in regards to smallpox? Did you understand what you are reading? Raymond Wong : You can read England ka, here is an example bulat, real sonkolong, .... I want here is the evidence.. Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : Plus all the goodies in your proverbial apple. I hope it doesn't put you off your fruits and vegetables... or brushing your teeth. Adrian Wong : Raymond Wong : That's a hoot alright. You are the buyer? What are you buying? I'm the seller? What am I selling? I've already proven you wrong on every single point you made. That's not because I'm a genius or know it all but because you make unsubstantiated claims. You have no evidence to back up your points. That's why you are now left asking me to prove my points, which I have done. That leaves you just one last resort - insist that I have not provided the evidence. It's a good last resort, because it means you don't need to provide any evidence for your claims, and you can just ignore every piece of evidence I present. Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : No, but if you refuse to sit in a car simply because you believe that cars cause accidents and the car manufacturer will not guarantee you that your car won't get into an accident, that would make you an anti-car person. Raymond Wong : "BTW, am I selling you something? Vaccines? How is it selling if it's FREE in the first place?" Hello, you think we are small kids ka, everybody know how the money go one big round with our tax dollars. If not how the Big Pharma gets their Billions and the Dr get their millions. You are already display your stupidity now you are showing your dishonesty , please continue we shall see more sides of you. Irene Wong : Haha! Just admit that you won't eat it. Seriously, you need to get a rest. I mean it sincerely. When you re too tired, your IQ (obviously your IQ is certified) and EQ doesn't fuse together. That is when hilarious scenarios crop up by professionals like you... I mean, c'mon! Seriously??? You have to have a word with everything even they are meant as sarcasm??? I mean, really??? Must have rebuttals for intended sarcasm??? Very professional. Haha! Raymond Wong : Everybody here who read this, if we take vaccines are we buying something???If we walk in a handbag shop do we need to prove it fake in order not to buy?? Raymond Wong : And Adrian, I am still waiting for your evidence..
Dallas Wong : This one dishonest doctor la, says he's always right, because never admit he's wrong. I say the cigarette industry claimed that cigarettes are safe, he misquoted me as saying they're healthy, somemore, don't admit (refer back). I post a news article with the title that says "Parents can't sue vaccine manufacturers", he twists and say pharma companies take responsibility. Now somemore say vaccines are free when our tax dollars are paying for it...sigh. Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : You are the one making the assumption. I've already pointed out to you that the vaccine doesn't use any smallpox virus. It uses a related virus called vaccinia. I'm not surprised that Dr. Raymond Obomsawin doesn't know that, because he isn't a medical doctor. He just has a PhD in health science and human ecology. If that's what he claims, then it would be like claiming that the polio vaccine causes HIV. Different viruses causing a disease? Dallas Wong : Maybe you should watch the whole thing before you comment. Adrian Wong : Raymond Wong : No, I don't think you are small kids, just deluded. I don't work for the government, and they are the ones providing the vaccines FOC. So do tell me how do doctors get money from promoting vaccines in Malaysia? Sure, continue with the personal attacks. That's real mature. Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : I've already pointed out to you - ALL of us have eaten the "poison-filled" apple you keep talking about. Why? Because you are tired of getting a beating on every point you ever made? Don't get so stressed lah... Have an apple. Dallas Wong : sorry, Adrian, you don't get to have both ways. Claiming vaccines are FOC when our tax money are paying for it. And then claiming that pharma companies take responsibility on the compensation paid out by vaccine court in the USA for injuries and deaths due to vaccines, when they don't pay a cent and again, tax payers are paying. Adrian Wong : Raymond Wong : You asked me for evidence that vaccines work in trials, and I have already provided you an example below. If you don't like it, you can search for others : ---------- Developments in the production and quality contr... [Biologicals. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI Developments in the production and quality control of poliovirus vaccines -- historical perspectives. "By 1959 several candidate live oral poliovirus vaccines (OPV) had been developed. These were clinically tested in millions of individuals and found to be safe and effective. Since the attenuated virus strains developed by Koprowski and Cox were more neurotropic in monkeys than the Sabin strains, only the latter was licensed in the USA in 1961 and endorsed shortly after by the World Health Organization (WHO)." Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : How am I having it both ways? Am I selling any vaccines? Am I in the pharmaceutical industry? The vaccines are free because the government pays for it. The same goes for other services that the government provides. Whether they are free or subsidized, they are paid for by tax dollars. But unless you come out with your own money for the service or vaccine, it is FREE to you. More importantly, doctors, whether they are working in the government or privately, do not gain financially whether the vaccination rate is 1% or 100%. Again, whether the pharmaceutical companies pay it directly, or the funds pay the compensation, the bill ultimately comes back to us - the consumers, whether it's by higher tax, or a higher cost on every drug we buy. Raymond Wong : Now you show you are lost. you are the one who make display, one moment you show yourself like a clown , one moment the sonkolong lawyer. And you keep on claiming victory over me in show prove when from beginning I never made any claim except asking questions, which you never dare to answer. And still claim victory which make you claiming a new title now "Ah Q mentality". It is you who are dancing around and everybody can see. BTW when we say we know how the money go round we really mean go round and round and round and round ...you know I know, heck everybody know. Raymond Wong : And I AND EVERYONE are still waiting for your evidence. Irene Wong : Hahaha! I totally forgot about it. Yes, our body makes formaldehyde. Does that mean I can safely downed a cup of formaldehyde? Inhale it? Now, are you telling me that WHO listed formaldehyde as a carcinogen is a hoax??? Irene Wong : Adrian, you don't know the meaning of tax is it? We need to pay tax to the government. The government uses the tax money to buy vaccines. So tell me, in which part that you do not understand that we have already paid by our own money upfront? Dallas Wong : Man, you're impossible. Fact: In the USA, you can't sue vaccine manufacturers for vaccine injuries or deaths. So vaccine manufacturers can claim vaccines are safe but take no responsibility. Compensation from vaccine court comes from tax payer fund. Watch: Do Vaccines Cause Autism? - YouTube Fact: Vaccines are not free. If someone gets paid for them, then they are paid for, whether by the consumer or tax payer's money. As a tax paying citizen, they are not free. Unless the vaccine manufacturers decides to take a loss and give vaccines free, then they are free.
Adrian Wong : Raymond Wong : If that is your opinion, you are more than welcomed to it. I think I have a greater understanding of who you are now, and why you are so anti-vaccination. As for evidence, I've already posted it many times. I'm sorry if you cannot accept it. Perhaps you would like to furnish your own evidence to disprove me? Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : Of course, you would think that, wouldn't you? Instead of mocking the point, why not try to disprove it (if you can)? Let me show you how : "Formaldehyde plays an essential role in our metabolism. As part of the metabolic process, formaldehyde, whether from an external source or produced by our bodies, is converted into formate (PDF) by the enzyme formaldehyde dehydrogenase. The resulting formate can then be eliminated in the urine, further broken down into CO2 and exhaled, or used by our cell machinery to synthesize nucleotides and amino acids, such as purines and thymidine. Purines include two of the four basic building blocks of DNA: adenine and guanine. When formaldehyde is converted into formate, the body can then use it to synthesize these basic building blocks of life. Likewise, thymidine, also called deoxythymidine, is integral to life. It is a nucleoside, which is a class of compounds that are components of nucleic acids; in other words, you need thymidine to make the nucleic acid thymine. They also perform a lot of other important functions. Nucleosides mediate hormone signaling and play a role in blood pressure and energy transfer, among other things (Jucker, 1993). Formaldehyde provides your body with the compounds necessary to synthesize thymidine. Just like with purines, if your body stopped using formaldehyde to make these basic compounds, well, all of your worries would disappear, since you'd be dead. Even before the advent of industrial uses of formaldehyde, humans, as with every other animal on Earth, had been exposed to formaldehyde through the foods they ate, the environments in which they lived and their own metabolic processes. They developed the means to use the chemical for their own cellular function, as well as the ability to get rid of excess amounts that would otherwise be toxic." Harpocrates Speaks: Demystifying Vaccine Ingredients - Formaldehyde Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : I'm sure you know that not everyone pays tax. Those who earn less than the taxable threshold do no need to pay tax. For them, it's completely free. Agreed? For the rest of us who pay income tax, our income tax isn't enough to cover the government's expenditure. The rest of it comes from PETRONAS, other forms of levies and taxes (RPGT, service tax, etc.) as well as the sale of bonds. So how much do taxes figure into the whole government expenditure? How much of the cost of vaccines is actually borne by our PETRONAS dividend, the sale of bonds, levies, etc? So even if it's not 100% free by your definition as a taxpayer, it's at least greatly subsidized. More importantly - this is a "fee" that you have already paid. So why not make use of it? It's not like the government is going to pay you a rebate for not getting vaccinated. Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : In the US, you CAN sue vaccine manufacturers for vaccine injuries and deaths. That's what the so-called "vaccine court" is for. If you can't, then how did those victims get compensation? In the example you gave earlier, they were trying to sue the vaccine manufacturer AGAIN in a state court when they had already received a judgement in the vaccine court, which is a federal court. Free or not, vaccines are the CHEAPEST form of healthcare. One shot in many cases, or several shots in other cases, for a lifetime of protection against those preventable diseases. Even if you have to pay for the vaccine, it's cheaper than spending time and money on treating the disease after you get infected. As they say - prevention is better than cure, especially if it's a family member you are talking about! Raymond Wong : Now you are showing yourself as a manipulative person. You know suing the vaccine court is not suing the manufacturers, it is been covered here already and yet you put this up. Are you sure you want to continue this display of stupidity, this page when presented to your paycheck claim will make you look very bad. And you have the gallbladder to show me a manufacturer protocol as a evidence .... please.. you are running out of juice.. AND I am not against Vaccines, I am looking and willing to buy the ones that work ..... and I am still waiting for your answer... show me the evidence on the ones that work. Irene Wong : LOL! You should tell WHO no need to list formaldehyde as a carcinogen, maybe you'll get rewarded ) By now I can confirm your stupidity by not knowing how the tax works. On the surface, those earned less doesn't need to pay tax to LHDN, but you are forgetting those earned less do go out for dinner, they travel, buy a car, buy a motorcycle, the list goes on... Er... No tax? So no need to pay road tax kah? No airport tax? Go out to a nice restaurant for dinner no govt tax kah? Okay, assuming they don't have to pay those taxes. Now, we talk about those who earns a little bit extra. Take for example, the owner of a grocery store. Assuming he owns a van to transport his goods, he needs to road tax. And you do know how exorbitantly high is the automobile tax imposed on a new car here, don't you? By taking these 2 form of taxes, he will reflect back on the pricing of his goods. So, unbeknown to the consumers of his goods, they are actually paying part of the taxes too. Come, talk to me about business. Irene Wong : Please stick to your points, Adrian... way earlier, you said nothing is free in this world, then you said vaccines are free, now you said free or not vaccines are the cheapest form of healthcare. Adrian Wong : Raymond Wong : Technically, you would be correct that you cannot DIRECTLY sue the manufacturer. You have to do it through the vaccine court, but the effect is still the same - the victims get compensated. As I pointed out, no matter whether you sue the companies directly, or get it from the program, the effect is basically the same - the consumers pays. "Since 1988, the program has been funded by an excise tax of 75 cents on every purchased dose of covered vaccine." If you use the manufacturer directly and win, guess what - they just jack up the price. Even worse, they jack up the price of all their medication, not just the vaccines. And yet again, I've already shown you evidence of human trials which have successfully showed protection for those who were infected. If you don't like it, that's too bad because I'm not going to do your research for you, when you have not shown me ANY evidence to back up your claims.
Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : Whether it is a carcinogen or not, formaldehyde is still part and parcel of our metabolic process. I know this may be difficult for you to understand, but it's a fact and no amount of name calling or denial will change that fact. Again, you are free to prove otherwise - that our body does not produce formaldehyde of its own. Ahhh.. more ad hominem attacks. Now I know I'm really winning the argument. Oh, add in all the taxes you want but as long as part of our government's expenditure (and thus the purchase of these vaccines) are funded by PETRONAS dividends and sale of government bonds, it is subsidized. I would also like you to note that while many of us pay taxes, the recipients of these free vaccines (our children) do not. So from that POV, the vaccines are free. Irene, please quote me where I said there's nothing free in this world? I believe I said that there are no guarantees in this world. And no matter how you twist my words or put words in my mouth, the fact still remains - you fail to show that any of your points are correct. And it is always you who don't stick to the point (do vaccines cause autism?) and always add new irrelevant points whenever you fail to prove your other points. Jasmin Choy : "Sorry (is) no cure" as Malaysians say. Prevention is always better than trying to sue someone after the fact. Raymond Wong : Now you are showing how Dungu you are. 1st I didn't claim anything , read up, I only ask question ??? Now you say comsumers pay, make up your mind , did you say it is free? We ask if manufacturers can be sued , you divert to vaccine court which have nothing to do with manufacturer , question was are the manufacturers responsible? And your answer is ?? another Sonkolong answer isn't it? I ask for evidence if any vaccines are effective against the particular disease and your answer is?? You show me a 'trial protocol' of vaccines being safe ??? Safe?? My question is, is it effective ?? And where is the proof? Now I am asking am I talking to a chimpanzee??? Am I wasting my time...??? I truly apologise for making you look so .......... no words la.. Adrian Wong : Jasmin Choy : Of course. But like I said before, it's all about risk management. And while you can sue the vaccine manufacturer through the vaccine court in the US, or directly in other countries, you cannot sue the polio virus or the hepatitis B virus if your child gets infected. Irene Wong : *sigh* did I deny the fact that our body produce formaldehyde? I didn't. I am pointing out that even if our body produces it, does that mean we can consume it, in its natural form? Strictly business speaking, by the time your children are born, they are heavily in debt. They need clothes, diapers, food, etc... They don't even start to earn yet they are already spending. Of course, the daddy paid for it already. So it's free. Petronas paid for it's free. Just like BR1M. They give you 500 then increase flour price, sugar price, petrol price, diesel price, etc etc Irene Wong : So in what sense it is free? Adrian Wong : Raymond Wong : Because of your seniority, I've been very polite. But I think I should at least remind you to be civil, because your conduct does not reflect what others are saying about you. You have accused me of working for Big Pharma, of selling you something, etc. You have any evidence to back up those claims? My apologies. I got your question mixed up with Dallas Wong's question on safety. Here's an example that shows the efficacy of the polio vaccine : http://www.who.int/immunization/polio_grad_opv_effectiveness.pdf Dong DX et al (1984) reported that prior to the vaccination program in 1960-64, the average annual incidence of poliomyelitis was 3.18 cases/100,000 population. The incidence dropped to 0.80/100,000 population in 1976-80 and to 0.47/100,000 population in 1981. The incidence of poliomyelitis was reduced markedly in those areas where an expanded immunization program was well administered. The data from a large investigation of poliovirus neutralizing antibody in health populations in Shanghai, Hunan, Henan, and other cities and provinces showed clear elevation of antibody levels as well as good immunologic effectiveness for OPV. Sutter RW et al (1991) conducted a case-control study of an outbreak in Oman where the incidence of paralytic disease in children aged < 2 years had reached 87/100,000, despite a coverage with 3 doses of OPV among 12- month-olds that recently had risen from 67% to 87%. It was reported that 3 doses of OPV reduced the risk of paralysis by 91%. Cases and controls had similar type 1 neutralizing antibody profiles that suggested widespread type 1 poliovirus transmission. Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : As I pointed out, formaldehyde is found naturally in fruits and vegetables, so every time you eat them, you are eating some amount of formaldehyde. It's not whether a substance is toxic or not, it's all about the dose. Everything we consume is toxic if in excessive doses. Even water can be toxic in large amounts. So, ingesting small amounts of formaldehyde is not dangerous and happens all the time. I'm not arguing with you that we, as parents, are prepaying for them. That's our duty. Surely you don't expect them to work for a living, right? Hehe... But the fact still remains that as far as the state is concerned, these children are not contributing to the state coffers but the state is providing them with free healthcare, including vaccines. Dallas Wong : "Free or not, vaccines are the CHEAPEST form of healthcare." Oh, that really depends. Getting vaccine injured may start you down a long road of expensive medical treatments and/or drugs, especially if you fail to get compensation from the vaccine court even when you have proven your case. Here's a good example: MMR vaccine caused children’s deafness MMR vaccine caused children?s deafness | The Times
Adrian Wong : Of course, it all depends on your luck, doesn't it? That's why I said it's all about risk management. She is one of only 10 cases of deafness after the rogue Urabe strain of the mumps was administered to 5.4 million children. Hers was the only one that they can actually attribute to the mumps vaccine. That's 1 out of 5,400,000. Without vaccination, 30% of male children who are infected will have inflammed testicles, of which half will result in testicular atrophy (shrunken testicles). 5% of the female children will suffer from inflammed ovaries. Overall, 2.5% of those who are infected will have fertility problems or end up sterile. In addition, 0.1% will suffer from encephalitis, 5% from temporary hearing loss and 0.005% from permanent hearing loss. Applied to the same population of 5.4 million children, with a mumps prevalence of 15.2% over those 4 years, that means if they were not vaccinated, 820,800 children would be infected with about 123,120 males suffering from inflammed testicles resulting in 61,560 pairs of shrunken testicles; while 20,520 girls would suffer from inflammed ovaries. In the end, 20,520 of those children would have fertility problems or end up sterile. In addition, 821 of those children will also suffer from encephalitis (which is potentially fatal), 41,000 will suffer from temporary hearing loss and 41 will suffer from permanent hearing loss. So statistically, the risk of deafness is actually much lower with vaccination, even with this rogue strain. Steven Tang Lai Chuan : Adrian Wong. 1. So the child may get a fever because that's how the body works. When confronted with an infection (or the perception of an infection), the body produces antibodies and raises the body temperature to fight the infection. This is a normal physiological reaction. But generally, if the fever persists, then either there is still an infection, or the body thinks that it is still fighting an infection. 2. No, if it's too high, it can cause fits and/or damage the brain. Steven Tang Lai Chuan : There are two diffrent points here. May I know which oneis correct? I personlly will gor for No. 1 as I don't think d body want to raise up the temparature just want to damage d brain. Adrian Wong : Steven Tang Lai Chuan : It's not a matter of choice for you or me. That's what the body does. Generally, it won't reach the point that the brain is damaged but if the hypothalamus is affected (by pyrogens from bacteria for example), then the fever could go beyond 41C. The point is since we know the danger of excessively high fevers, we just need to monitor and make sure the fever does not get too high. Irene Wong : Well, it was you who are doing the twisting job. You said those earned less than the taxable threshold no need to pay tax. When I pointed out it was not, you twist and said children. Adrian Wong : LOL! Bringing in a new point is called twisting? As I pointed out, no matter whether you pay income tax or not, your services are subsidized by PETRONAS income received by the government and the sale of government bonds. Irene Wong : As with the earlier comments where I choose to disagree, you comes up with automobile comparison, then with claims that hypothetically u will eat something then said who will want to eat contaminated stuff, then u said everyday we are eating contaminants. You are doing this job pretty well yourself. You presented the 11 vaccine theory but not walking the talk. I choose to disagree, you said I am an anti vaxer. So if I choose Honda over Toyota, I'm anti Toyota? U might as well say I am anti you. Ya ya, everything in moderation is the key. What's next? I can eat aluminum in moderation because it's in the food, in the aluminum foil, the aluminum wok? I can start putting mercury on my face because the make up stuff has it? I can start eating charcoal in moderation everyday because I love BBQ? Let the readers decide who is losing points and who is losing mind. You don't have to say out loud that you are winning the argument. It was never a competition in the first place. Who puts what in whose mouth? To each his own. Patrick Ong : Christine Sam Raymond Wong : It is time you should look at the mirror and read your own comments and see how 'civilized' you were. You were belittling everyone that cross your path, questioning and insulting everyone's intelligence. A taste of your own medicine and you wither. Well you are the one that keep on challenging me to stay on and debate. For me to give you some of my time I am already showing you some respect. Check my posting here in Raw Food , I didn't exist. As I said I shall give you the pleasure of final words. I believe the readers here have read enough and they sure know enough to make their own sensible decision. Anything more that I say or you say won't change their opinions now. Thank you for a moment of great entertainment. Shia Million : after so long i came into realization that there are so many Wongs here Adrian Wong : Irene Wong : You have been wrong every step of the way, from making ridiculous claims that injecting foreign DNA will change our DNA to injecting human diploid cells into body or that vaccines contain monkey/human/pig/cow cells. Even when you come up with analogies, you make wrong ones, intentionally, I would think. For example - "By the way, if I choose to travel by train, does that make me an anti car person?" How is that an appropriate analogy? That analogy is like saying that you choose vaccine A instead of vaccine B for the same disease. What you are doing now is telling people that cars cause accidents because all car accidents involve cars, ergo cars must cause accidents. Even the possibility of a part of the car malfunctioning (contamination) is reason enough that we all must not drive cars. If you decide not to drive a car because you are paranoid about cars committing suicide and killing you in the process, by all means. But don't presume to fool other people into thinking that car manufacturers make cars that kill their own customers just to make money (vaccine manufacturers want to make money and they make vaccines that kill their customers). Yes, that's how ridiculous you sound. And after all those claims and analogies you made, where are your evidence? Have you proven at all that injecting foreign DNA will change our DNA? Have you proven that injecting vaccines will also inject human diploid cells? Have you proven that vaccines contain monkey/human/pig/cow cells? You can't. Because the facts do not support your claims. This has NOTHING to do with whether I'm here to disprove them or not. I cannot disprove them if the facts do not support me. I'm merely the messenger. Exactly, Irene. No need to get so frustrated. As I said before - we present our points and the evidence to back them up. Then we let the readers decide.
Adrian Wong : Raymond Wong : I have been very civil. More so than you. Did I call you names? Did I accuse you of having some kind of financial benefit? If I did - please QUOTE ME? I did question people's intelligence, because I'm appalled by the lack of it. But I didn't insult them. They insulted themselves by continuing with their ridiculous claims. It's one thing if they choose to believe that vaccines cause autism. It's quite another thing if they tell other parents that this is true, because IT'S NOT. What taste of my own medicine and I wither? How would you respond to ad hominem attacks, Raymond? By going down to the same level? I think not. As for your claim that I challenged you to stay on and debate, QUOTE ME? I know and I understand why you came into this discussion attacking me personally. You have presented no facts, just accusations of impropriety. Is that how a learned man like yourself conducts himself? Forget the fact that I'm medically-trained. Consider the posts above. I have replied to every single post with evidence - quotes, statistics, explanations, examples. If you have ANY evidence to say that I'm lying, or wrong, about vaccines - please go ahead and post them. Yes, leave it to the readers to judge for themselves. I'm glad I entertained you. I just hope that the readers are educated as well as entertained. Dallas Wong : Wait a minute...here's what you said to Irene... "You have been wrong every step of the way, from making ridiculous claims that injecting foreign DNA will change our DNA to injecting human diploid cells into body or that vaccines contain monkey/human/pig/cow cells." Medical research: Cell division Medical research: Cell division : Nature News & Comment "Leonard Hayflick, pictured in 1982, inspects WI-38 cells that he derived from aborted fetal lungs. The cells have been used to produce vaccines in use worldwide." "WI-38 cells became the first 'normal' human cells available in virtually unlimited quantities to scientists and to industry and, as a result, have become the most extensively described and studied normal human cells available to this day." And here is a list of vaccine ingredients: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf Adrian Wong : Dallas Wong : Scroll up some more, even Irene Wong has admitted it - they use the cells in the PRODUCTION of the vaccine, not in the vaccine. Irene Wong : "Of course I know that the cells are used to culture the bacterias/viruses." Adrian Wong : Siew Yeen : I think you meant possible links between vaccination and autism? There's no such thing in science. Even if something has been proven, they will always research the issue. The more data we have, the more certain we are. It's also to rule out any misconduct or manipulation of the data, as we have seen with Andrew Wakefield's case. But even if we ignore the science, can we ignore the logical conundrums posed by the claims made by the anti-vaccination proponents? So far, no one here has even dared to attempt to answer one : 1. Can the MMR vaccine cause autism as claimed by Andrew Wakefield if autism can be detected months before it is actually administered? 2. Is Andrew Wakefield really against vaccination if he actually developed his own monovalent vaccines and was hoping that they would replace the MMR vaccine after he proves them to be dangerous? 3. Is Andrew Wakefield really the only researcher in the world (out of tens of thousands who have investigated the link between vaccines and autism) who isn't being bribed by pharmaceutical companies? 4. If vaccines cause autism, then why do unvaccinated kids still end up autistic? 5. If vaccines cause autism, then why does the prevalence of autism remain the same in the unvaccinated community as the vaccinated community? 6. If adjuvants like thimerosal cause autism, then why does the prevalence of autism INCREASE even after those adjuvants were removed? 7. If the mercury in thimerosal cause autism, why doesn't mercury chelation therapy cure autism? 8. If mercury is the cause of autism, why don't we see a higher prevalence of autism in communities that consume a lot of fish and shellfish? 9. If mercury is the cause of autism, why isn't autism more common in the past when it was actually used as a disinfectant and laxative for children? 10. Vaccines are made from fragments or components of the infectious agent, or inactivated or weakened forms of the infectious agent. So if they cause autism, then getting infected by those disease will also cause autism. Adrian Wong : Wow.. It's been 350 posts in this thread. Okay, I think we can agree that we are beating a dead horse here. Both sides have exhaustively presented their points and facts (or lack thereof). I think we are all in agreement that we will leave it to the readers to decide for themselves. If anyone has any further doubts about the science, consider instead the logical problems I have posted about the claims that vaccines cause autism. These conundrums do not require you to understand science or even trust it. You just need to consider if the following are true : 1. Can the MMR vaccine cause autism as claimed by Andrew Wakefield if autism can be detected months before it is actually administered? 2. Is Andrew Wakefield really against vaccination if he actually developed his own monovalent vaccines and was hoping that they would replace the MMR vaccine after he proves them to be dangerous? 3. Is Andrew Wakefield really the only researcher in the world (out of tens of thousands who have investigated the link between vaccines and autism) who isn't being bribed by pharmaceutical companies? 4. If vaccines cause autism, then why do unvaccinated kids still end up autistic? 5. If vaccines cause autism, then why does the prevalence of autism remain the same in the unvaccinated community as the vaccinated community? 6. If adjuvants like thimerosal cause autism, then why does the prevalence of autism INCREASE even after those adjuvants were removed? 7. If the mercury in thimerosal cause autism, why doesn't mercury chelation therapy cure autism? 8. If mercury is the cause of autism, why don't we see a higher prevalence of autism in communities that consume a lot of fish and shellfish? 9. If mercury is the cause of autism, why isn't autism more common in the past when it was actually used as a disinfectant and laxative for children? 10. Vaccines are made from fragments or components of the infectious agent, or inactivated or weakened forms of the infectious agent. So if they cause autism, then getting infected by those agents will also cause autism. I know that some of you are angry because you think you lost the argument, but understand this - you did not lose to me. You lost your argument with facts, not me. I'm merely the messenger. I'm not the creator of those facts. With that, I bid you guys adieu. To those whom I've offended, I apologize. To those who have made personal attacks against me, I get it.
Despite their repeated claims that they would let me have the last word so I can justify my fat paycheck to Big Pharma (Merck, Pfizer, anyone???), it was obvious that they cannot and would not let me have the last word. After I left the conversation, they started to pile on the insults, knowing that I wouldn't respond. Check out the 20-30 posts they left AFTER I announced that I was stopping the debate on my end.
Teri Liew : Uhmm why did they set up a VAERS? Irene Yew : Sharon Ng Raymond Ng : Oh My, your AH Q mentality knows no bound. Look what you just said. "I did question people's intelligence, because I'm appalled by the lack of it. But I didn't insult them. They insulted themselves by continuing with their ridiculous claims." Your high and mighty attitude, you call that civilized? Insulting with sarcastic remarks is a real hypocrite, I am direct and honest. Character you are real lacking. You have no respect on choices that people here choose. So what if they tell their friends not to vaccinate? Why are you so agitated that we don't believe in vaccines? It is our choice. The fact you are in medical line you are already financially benefiting from vaccination, they have to come to you when got fever after the vaccines and a host of other illness that will buy you your sport car. See? what a hypocrite you are. You keep say the people make claims that they can't substantiate, HELLO !! , we are the receiving victims here !! We are asking questions??? Question !!! you thick head , do you hear? And until now you still cannot answer. And you go round the bush again and again. We asked you about the manufacturer's responsibility and you push it to vaccine court, I asked you for evidence you went one big round and round and round and then show me a trail protocol and then show me a statistic. You should join Perkasa and become a politician. And ya I accused you to be the cyber spokeman or trooper as they call it. It is easy to know. They have a specific behavior. Just reveal one here. You know when all our guilty politician when ask if they have been corrupt and they know we know ? Well they all defend with one statement "prove it". That is what you asked. If an innocent one will ask a different question, guess what question? I didn't come in to attack anybody, hello *knock *knock, your brain there? Please check my post , I came asking questions and what I got was abused of insults. I only begin administer medicine to this mentally retard when you keep dancing with your own stupidity. Calling you names?? If I really want to call you names the first one will to call you a murderer. There are enough vaccine death that any one who advocate vaccine is a murderer. You say we have no right to tell others not to vaccinate , well nobody I know here ever did that. They only ask their friend to get more info to decide. You are the only one who advocate , preach, threaten, stupid if you don't. So you have every right to tell everyone what to do ? You the high and mighty? And if the child die, in you own words , don't blame me, just your luck, go sue vaccine court?? If this is not scumbag murderer I don't know what is.. Irene Wong : Seriously Adrian, why are you trying so hard? How does train and car is the wrong analogy? Train can mean natural living, homeopathy, delaying vaccine, not vaccinating... Car obviously mean vaccinating... BTW, that statement of mine is intended to tell you that because i disagree you have labelled me as an anti vaxer, and you just have to rebut and goes on and on saying about car paranoia. LOL! But like I said earlier, how you interpret stuffs it's your freedom Irene Wong : You are really impossible... You still don't understand what I am trying to say up until now. Communication 101 : LISTEN. Yes, cells used to culture. If chicken embryos can cause egg allergy because the egg protein goes into the body when u inject MMR, tak kan u want to tell me DNA or whatever technical term you want to put it from the aborted fetus cell doesn't go into our body when we inject MMR? Even you, Dr Adrian Wong ADMITTED that some DNA still remain even after the filtering process. Yes, scroll way up. But then again, as always, I don't expect you to answer what human diploid cells do to our body when egg protein gives egg allergy, cause you have been ignoring this of a long time. And no, I did not make ridiculous claim. For a layman like me, chicken embryo = chick(egg)protein = egg allergies. Human diploid cells = human DNA = ( waiting for your answer ). Irene Wong : Because you said and stressed that I make ridiculous claim in almost all your comments, maybe because you want to win, or maybe you are really knowledgeable, which I hope you are, let me put it simply for you. You see, you deny that we don't inject cells or foreign DNA into our body by injecting vaccine. So, let me ask you, are you trying to tell the whole world that you pick up the bacterias and viruses one by one from the culture, clean them, 100% clean? If you ADMITTED that DNA still remain after filtering, meaning got DNA in the vaccine lah = inject vaccine = inject DNA lah. Like they say in the insert about thimerosal. They said they take out, not listed in the ingredients, but on the long list of the vaccine insert, it is stated in the precaution, that trace amount of thimerosal still present in the vaccine. Now who is making ridiculous claims? Irene Yew : Following Irene Wong : So you see, you have failed to LISTEN to my concern. By labeling me as an anti vaxer, you have been BIASED in your judgement of my statements. By saying that no doctors will be responsible for vaccine injury = you are not responsible if a child gets a vaccine from you then got vaccine injured (horror!) and cites example of surgery goes wrong then will I blame the surgeon speaks volumes of your conscience, if you have one, that is. For me, it is called MEDICAL NEGLIGENCE. http://www.cdc.gov/.../appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf The link above is for those who are interested to know what's in a vaccine, from CDC itself. FYI, presents in trace amount means there is a possibility of the substance being present in the vaccine. KuanMing Lim : LOL.. Ah Q Mentality The True Story of Ah Q - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia KuanMing Lim : This explains and summarizes a lot of the 350 comments above Do Vaccines Cause Autism? - YouTube Steven Tang Lai Chuan : Adrian Wong. May i know if a patient admitted n u found out that his temperature oredy more than 41C+. Will u still monitor or gv injection immediately to bring down d temperature? Azaliza Safarida Wasli Tq for the much heated discussion. Folks who wish to follow/read this thread do so with an open mind n heart. Its so hard to be a medical personel nowadays huh. Lucky am not one
Alice LeeMyles : Adrian Wong Thanks for replying. EXACTLY, ----"Of course, there are always unethical doctors who are looking to make money in many ways. Just like there are unethical politicians, unethical police officers, unethical government servants, unethical teachers, unethical businessmen, unethical salespeople, etc. This is human nature." Well said, you got it right there Adrian!!! What make you think US FDA is not part of it, right? I agree with you, it's human nature, isn't it. So better be safe than sorry. Thanks for your concern. I know doctors want to heal people. When I consult a doctor, I am paying him not just for his expertise and his experience in diagnosing my medical problem and treating me PROPERLY (if possible), AND for him to be able to TREAT me PROPERLY, I EXPECT him to LISTEN to my problem before he can treat me PROPERLY. AND IF I get any side effect due to the treatment, I ALSO expect him to LISTEN to my side effects problem, UNDERSTAND and FOLLOW UP, INSTEAD OF PUSHING BLAMES on me, IGNORE ME, OR blame it on HERBS, SUPPLEMENTS, AND YES you are right DRUGS TOO. Again, I agree with you on this very much! If I'm not comfortable with the doctor because of his skills, products and ATTITUDE, I will definitely get a second opinion, even 3rd and 4th, and 5th. That include ARROGANT or EGOTISTICAL doctors; He or she comes across as mightier-than-thou, seems brusque, superior or conceited, as if we are supposed to feel lucky simply to be in this person's presence, or fearful enough that we had better not cross him, (hey doctors, I'm human too, you know). There are those went through 6 years of medical school and 4-5 years of government service, and still turned out to be unethical. What to do, human nature... There are always better doctors out there who want to heal and still know how to RESPECT their patients & LISTEN to their patients' problem instead of just brush it under the carpet, with better customer service skill and communication skills. I'm allergic to bad attitude and bad customer service. You said, "As for drugs doing more harm than good, I find that very hard to believe"...Well, I suggest you google and find out more. I have googled too. Don't I know the courts are not flawless, I see you know that too, so it's the SAME goes for the medical industry or any industries!What to do, no one is perfect, and it's human nature. So we all have to be careful. Peace. Joanne Lum : I just spent an hour reading this thread. Here is my share. If u are wondering has anyone survive with alternatives to drugs for fever/headache, i am one of them. Am a living proof. Have been allergic to panadol, aspirin & NSaids for 18years (since 19yo). Throughout the 18yrs, i tried & tested many ways that may help. To name a few, here there are.. - TCM (traditional Chinese medication) - cold shower - frozen towel on forehead - coconut water - 100plus with salt - 100plus with lemon - red apples - green apples - teh tarik - sleeping patterns - exercise - sponging Of all the above, the fruits & cold shower work effectively. Only had fever once or twice a year. Constant headache due to stress. I am a mother of a 24mo boy. He was vaccinated till 12mo. Had stopped all his vaccination schedule after i did my research. No fever medication needed for him too. I am also down with atopic eczema for the last 23 & a half months. Had stopped all medication & cream with steroid for 6mths already. Now, i am on raw juice & smoothies to control the inflammation. Consume less than a fist of meat a day. Have not down with fever for more than a year. Barely have headache since i started juices & smoothies Drugs maybe a quicker ways to heal our pain. But i believe that our body can self-healed if we listen to their needs. Mei Yean : Its amazing to read and learn from both sides just by reading the comments on this post alone. You know the number of kids being VAX injured is so small so to speak by the medical experts n pharma companies that those of us who are the unlucky ones are just one small fraction of the larger community. But to parents with ASD,ADHD,CP n a whole lot of brain injured kids who are battling to treat their kids and hope that one day they would be normal, its like a 100% jackpot. Its just so bizarre to read that there are people who doesn't believe in faith.... I'm a mother to a severely brain injured child n let me tell you this.. FAITH kept n still is keeping my family going .. you believe in evidence, fine...keep that with u....we have enuf parents here with brain injured kids whom we parents know its caused by VAX as evidence. I would like to also point out that just becoz one is a certified doctor after spending years and tones of money studying n getting a cert does not make us the layman any lesser that them. Again, brain injury is treatable....all these so called names that the so called medical experts labelled on these kids are pure label....they are all brain injured. I've known n seen parents with severely ASD kids who are now living a full life...and most importantly, they are very HUMBLE and they are where they are today becoz their parents had that faith alive n burning....they never loose hope and they fought through the battle...to parents with brain injured kids, please don't loose hope n faith... Coz as Ye have faith, so shall your blessings and powers be. You are all great parents and the chosen ones of GOD to raise these special angels of HIS....mind you not everyone can be parents to a special child. Mummy Juls : Mei Yean Amen! Maggie Foo : Mei Yean god bless u... well said... Maggie Foo : Modern medicine do have flaws n lots of unknown diagnosis or can't diagnosed at all...we sometimes become their expensive guinea pig...alternative medicine via tcm..food. ..etc had make people realise there are other ways that even certified doctors are puzzled. My son's paed....seek God...only he can do the impossible. Joanne Lum : Mei Yean, you are absolutely right about faith. I had tutor a mild brain injured student before. He had too much medical intervention at 8mo which resulted him to weak in learning. Slow learner like him has no place in public schools. Most teachers would label him naughty or stupid. He was an active kid as well. It was faith that kept me & my colleagues to continue to tutor him. We never believe in stupidity in children. Long Yau came to our tuition center at the age of 7. Had to put him with the 5yo as he could not even recognized the word 'cat'. His illiterate mother was very supportive towards our teaching concept. We spent 5.5 hours a week nurturing him. Giving him hope & encouragement when he was let down at school. Telling him to have faith in himself & be strong with the harsh remarks that he gets. Told him that it is a pity that those people do not understand u. After years of struggles, Long Yau scored Bs & Cs in his Primary 6 exam. He may not be an A scorer. But he had a heart of gold. He was the only child who asked about my back pain when i was on MC for a week. I cried instantly. Now, we have a 7yo child with heart problem in hand. He was on MC at age 5 for the whole year. The public school wanted to deny him a place at school. His parents fought hard. What is keeping them & us going? FAITH ~ Mei Yean : Joanne Lum, faith n prayers have kept my family together....Adele works very hard each day to complete her program and mind you its hard work even for us what more for her who is only 21mth old. We have not given up hope and will never give up on her. We were once told that she will not live long, that she may be blind, not going to move and in fact she was profoundly deaf on both ears last year. ..she is now hearing very well and is moving down her inclined floor 56 times today and is starting to crawl a little...the journey ahead of us is a long and challenging one but we know Adele will be well...because, that's our believe, our faith and determination Joanne Lum : Inspiring mummy Mei Yean with aspiring hearts of gold, Leah & Adele I am one of your follower in Adele, A Journey to Wellness. Leslie Ling : Mei Yean - you're an inspiration to me. In comparison to me managing my 12 years old boy that is Asperger (ASD) and ADHD, my problem is so small..... But still I live in frustration everyday. He did fairly well for his OZ Year 7 Naplan scoring 7,8,8,8 & 9 for 5 subjects with a range of score for Y7 of low of 5 to high of 9....but his social skills and communication (or lack of it) is causing a lot of stress to people around him including teachers, peers, sibling, me etc. But when I look at you I am somewhat consoled.
