Take for example, a Customer Service Officer at an organization like Maxis, and compare that person to somebody from the board of directors. Compare their very different mentalities and approach towards their day to day tasks. What is the difference that you see here? It is the same thing as well. Once again, the question to pose to you is: Is the fanaticism something that had been in them all along? Or is something that is cultivated in order to get the grunts to do suicide attacks? Yup, that is indeed the ideal situation to put them at. A situation where their hands are tied. Pros and Cons of different governments types is not the issue here. What I'm getting at are certain points about America's democracy, the idealism vs. the reality of it, and how it can be exploited. See again my point above in regards to the situation on how to deal with such organizations. Yup, there will be people in the government who will sigh with relief. But there will also be people in the government who will be wondering at how to deal with the other messes that they've got on their hands, now that they cant claim that their attention has all been occupied by the war on terrorism. Also, see below on your points in regards to China, and why they cannot bomb or invade China over piracy. Correct, you cannot force a mechanic to repair a hold in someone's heart, but do you think they will care? All they're concerned about is that they've contributing money, but they dont see any results in return. Human reactions can be pretty irrational indeed. Actually, on that bit about the hold in the heart, here's a different thought on it as well. Can you expect a GP to do neuro surgery? Of course not right? But try to explain that to an uneducated person from a 3rd world country on why you cannot help remove a brain tumour from their son. What's the chances that they'll just resort back to their witch doctors who may actually do more harm than good? Remember my question to you in regards to your emphasis on publicity, and the overall purpose and reason behind their their actions? And nup, a mind game is expecially effective if only the side waging that game is aware that it is a mind game. Why? Because the objective is to get the other side more and more paranoid and second guessing on everything. The moment the target is aware of it, it will then change everything. Does it really matter if the rest of the world thinks that its just something done by a bunch of people in china? For example, sending letters to top level Amway distributers telling them that the Amway Viagra spam flooding the internet is due to their campaign contributions to the republicans. Yup, the Star Wars programme was part of the arms race that the Soviet Union had been provoked into. The reason why I had mentioned that is because it was the hype of it all that had them all paranoid about, and spend even more money that they cannot afford to spend. Yup, but tell me something also. Do they need to do certain things in order to get the money? I mean, they dont have a magic bag with an endless supply of money do they? Actually, that's part of the mind game too. If they can be provoked into thinking that they should bomb singapore, its even better Yup, they do not really care if bombs will be dropped on their heads or not, but they will care if those bombs are dropped on the heads of their family members, or on their religious monuments. That is also why I had asked you, what is the purpose of it all. Is it bombing stuff for the purpose of bombing stuff? Is it killing ppl for the sake of killing ppl? Is it jihad for the sake of jihad? You have yet to answer this question. What is the entire purpose of it all?
Hmm.. I don't really get this part. No one is born a fanatic. It has to be cultivated at some point in time. BTW, terrorists do NOT need to be suicidal. In fact, most terrorist attacks are not suicidal by nature. Err.. That's already the situation, because of the nature of a terrorist organization. Switching to piracy of software and media isn't going to make it worse for the government. In fact, I think they will welcome it. Well, I'm only pointing out that America is not the only democracy and that no matter what government you choose, there are always loopholes and weaknesses to exploit. Err... It can and will be dealt with other methods. The same methods used to curb commercial piracy. After all, the crime is the same. Hmm.. I don't get you.. Indeed. But irrational or not, what else can they do? If politician A says he cannot do anything, what can you do? Buy politician B? Yes, but what if politician B says he cannot do it too? Then what? Buy the whole Congress? The point of that analogy is that there's a limit to what you can "force" people to do. You can buy politicians, but politicians are BOUND by laws and regulations. They can bend the law but there are still limits to what they can do. Err.. Nope. I thought I answered that. LOL... Not really. The problem about being too smart about it is that in life, things don't turn out exactly as you planned. It's NOT like the movies where the good guys execute elaborate plans to destroy or beat the bad guys. In real life, the military and even terrorist organizations try to keep their operations as simple as possible. Even so, they still make mistakes. When it comes to your mind game, what makes you think the target population will THINK like you do? Are you sure they will react the way you THINK they will react? Even if they have a psychologist planning it, even he/she won't be able to guarantee it will work. Yes, it does. If no one knows, then no one will care. And what will Al Qaeda be? Just another pirate. Err.. Even I get tons of spam mail. Do you think they will care or bother? Actually, the Star Wars programme was the last and unfinished part of the arms race. Even before it started, the Soviet Union was already in trouble. Besides, only the US started on the Star Wars programme. The Soviet Union went with anti-ballistic missiles. And before Star Wars, the Soviet Union already bankrupted itself building thousands of ICBMs, submarines, and even paying off their spies in the US. Well, Al Qaeda has been said to obtain loads of money from rich contributors in the Arab world. Also, it's claimed that donations for the poor from many Islamic nations were siphoned to finance the operations. In addition, Bin Laden is a very rich man. His family is also very rich. They own the biggest construction company in Saudi Arabia, if I'm not mistaken. BTW, many terrorist organizations finance themselves via the drug trade or counterfeiting money. In fact, Iran and North Korea have been accused of counterfeiting the US dollar to finance their operation. Err.. Even as dumb as Bush is, I don't think he will fall for that. He still has a few smart advisors. Err.. Not really. You still seem to think the US government is dropping bombs on Al Qaeda operatives or their family members. Actually, dropping bombs on non-combatants, even if they are related to Al Qaeda operatives will only tilt world opinion in the wrong direction. Same goes for dropping bombs on religious monuments. What's the entire purpose? LOL! How should I know? If you want to know the purpose of Al Qaeda's attacks, you should ask Bin Laden. From what I heard, he wants the US out of Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries. If you want to know the purpose of Bush's invasion of Iraq, you should ask him. But I'm guessing the answer will be quite slippery.
The point is the difference in mind sets between the grunt out there carrying the bombs, and also the one at the top. The grunts are out at the front because they have got a need to express their frustration, but the ones doing the planning have got their own reasons for each individual move planned. Hence the flaw in your argument that terrorism are just acts of individual violence. It does make things easier for the government, but is the entire government the problem that the terrorists are out to tackle in the first place? Correct, of which I was stating the weaknesses that are exploitable, and not talking about the merits and issues with different types of goverments out there The crime is still the same, but the same methods used to curb it? I mean, can u imagine sending the Al Queda a summons to appear in court over intellectual property infringement? Correct, they cannot bend the law, neither can they fly. But do you think those who had contributed to the campaigns will care? The entire purpose is to put those responsible over foreign policies. Actually, yes and no. What u had answered was more of the intermediate reasons, but what I'm asking is what is the root reason of it all. Exactly, in real life, there is no black and white solution to everything, thus is very much a matter of statistics, trial and error, and persistance See again above, its mainly statistics. And besides, its not the population that is the target here. The target here are those who can apply the most pressure. Nup, it does not, because it depends on who the target are. Refer to you comment on does everybody think the same way as you do? Once more, refer to your comment on not everything is as in the movies, where one big master plan will solve everything. This is more of the attrition type of conflict, where the objective is to slowly wear down the other side. Hence, its not just Amway Viagra spam, but multiple similar things done continously. You may not think much of spam, guess what keeps spam alive? Because there are still a significant number of people out there who pay attention to the spam mails they get. Hence the finishing touch? Off the mark fully again here. My reply was in reference to your comment about attacking their money and not their product, and talking about the capitalist here, not the terrorist organizations. Hence my question, do you expect the capitalist to have a money making machine? Or do they need to do something in order to get their money? Yup, but you did bring up the question of if they should bomb Singapore right? Correct, which is why the smart move of those iraqies hiding inside mosques and sniping away at the US soldiers. Nup, they do not drop bombs on the family members, but think about it, collatoral damage does occur does it not? Accidents still occur does it not? Well, in part you had answered my question. The issue here is mainly with the US' foreign policies.
Err.. First off, I did not argue that terrorism are just acts of individual violence. Would really appreciate a quote if you have one. All I said was that most terrorist attacks are not suicidal by nature. I don't understand what that has to do with what you said above. In fact, I agree with you that the planners and the actual executioners of the plans have different reasons for doing what they are doing. The "grunts", so to speak, will probably believe in the cause, but that's not necessarily true for the leaders. It depends on what terrorist organization you are talking about. We can't just generalize all terrorists merely based on terrorist organizations like Al Qaeda. What about anarchist terrorists like the Baader-Meinhof Gang? Or "freedom fighters" like the IRA and the ETA? They are quite different from Al Qaeda, aren't they? But coming back to your question, if the government of any particular country is not the problem that terrorists in general have, pray tell, what is the problem that all terrorists are out to tackle in the first place? And I'm merely pointing out to you that irrespective of the choice of government, there are always weaknesses to exploit. Okay, if you want to specifically point at the US model of democracy, yes, that is a weak point. But that is a very specific weak point of the US model of democracy. Certainly does not apply to other countries that practice democracy as well. Neither have software companies been successful in sending Chinese counterfeiters summonses to appear in court. Look at the steps that software companies are taking. Take for example, the recent "shame campaign" undertaken by Microsoft. By forcing pirated copies to display a notice that it's a pirated copy, they are effectively forcing the user to buy legit to avoid embarrassment. Now, isn't that a method that would work for ALL pirated software, no matter whether it was distributed by a terrorist, or a commercial pirate? Like I said, it doesn't matter because even if you buy the ENTIRE Congress, they cannot be forced to do anything they cannot do. What can they do? Stop buying politicians? Then what? It totally doesn't make any sense. Besides, I don't think such brilliant business people are so stupid or childish to actually insist that their bought politicians do the impossible. If you have an answer for that, please do tell us. Which is exactly why until today, no terrorist organization has ever bothered with piracy. Statistically, some terrorist should have at least given it a try, shouldn't they? If they did not do so, they evidently have very good reasons why. Wait.. You said it's not the government. Now, you said it's not the population that terrorists are targeting. So, who are terrorists targeting in all their attacks?? Oh? If so, can you please tell us who the target is? And how it would change the paradigm? Attrition? How are you going to wear down anyone by pirating software or media? Or even by spamming? BTW, I never once said that everyone thinks the same way I do. In fact, I keep telling you that because people are unpredictable, it's very hard for any "genius" masterplan to work. Yes, there is a sucker born every minute. But why waste time trying to use spam as a weapon when you can easily use a worm or a virus? Seriously, I think you are trying to prove that it's possible to spam someone into submission. Yes, it's possible. Anything is possible. But why choose spam when there are many other, easier ways to achieve the same end? Wouldn't that be like reaching behind your head to scratch your nose? Why not just reach IN FRONT and directly scratch your nose? Finishing touch? Seriously, all the Star Wars programme did was make people in the US military industry rich. Even if it's fully operational, all it does is shield the US against ICBM attacks by the USSR. It is NOT an offensive weapon that the USSR can respond with by building more offensive weapons to achieve MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction). So, I must disagree with you that the Star Wars programme was a finishing touch to what you may perceive as a brilliant masterplan to bankrupt the USSR. The Star Wars programme was a waste of money for the US. If anything bankrupted the USSR, it's their poor management of their economy and military build-up, including construction and maintenance of numerous ICBMs and their delivery platforms. Hmm.. Since you keep saying I'm off the mark, why don't you answer your own questions so I would at least know what you are talking about? Yes, to point out to you that terrorism is borderLESS. You did mention terrorists should adopt piracy to avoid the US or whatever government bombing them or their family members. I'm merely pointing out to you that it's a moot point. Terrorists have no fear of governments bombing them or their family members because they are EVERYWHERE, even in the US. Do you really expect them to drop a bomb on Denver just because they detected an Al Qaeda cell there? Or Singapore, where terrorists have been known to meet and operate? It was a smart military move. Of course, they may have desecrated their holy places with their violence. But I guess it's easy to talk the talk, but quite another thing to walk the walk. And your point is? My point is accidents or collateral damage is detrimental to government forces, especially in PR. Terrorists would WELCOME them. So, why should they be worried about their own people or families dying? That will only mean more martyrs and more volunteers. Only if you are talking SPECIFICALLY about Al Qaeda. There are MANY, MANY other terrorist organizations who do not give a whit about the US foreign policy. So, pointing at the US foreign policy as the "whole point" is really missing the forest for the trees. We are talking about terrorists in general. Even if you wish to only talk about Al Qaeda and its war on the US, piracy of software and media, as well as spam is a problem for the ENTIRE world. The US is not the only country to produce software, movies or even use the Internet, you know. Thanks to globalization, most products are created all over the world. Pirating software and media, as well as spamming, will affect everyone around the world. In other words, they are too non-specific enough for terrorists who wish to deliver a message. How will you look if you declare war against the US but end up creating problems for Pakistanis who actually support you?
You had said: "So, whether they actually appear to us as mind games or not, I believe acts of terrorism are created as more mundane acts of violence by individuals who feel they have no better way to express their anger, or to impose their views on others." Ask and it shall be given You are asserting that I have stated that the government of countries are not the target, but compare your assertion here to my original post when I had asked: "is the entire government the problem that the terrorists are out to tackle in the first place?" Perhaps you had missed out on the word 'entire'? The topic in discussion here in this thread is in regards to the US vs. those in the middle east is it not? Well, not being successful in going after Chinese counterfeiters is exactly my point. Being a target that they cannot deal with using their current method for dealing with terrorists. Besides, do you really think that MS' shame campaign is the one stop solution to solving their piracy problem? I mean, even in the thread that announced this, there's bets going on how long before it gets cracked right? Really now? I mean, would brilliant business people make statements like "I dont know what a root kit is, so why should the rest of the world care about what a root kit is?" I mean, even brilliant people can be forced to do rather dumb things at times when under pressure. Already answered at the bottom of my last post. Nup, only you have asserted that I have said that its not the government when I did not. See above. Did I claim it to be a "genius" masterplan? Nup. I had suggested it as a possible alternate method. And I did say that its gonna be a lot of trial and error and persistance involved didnt I? Well, in regards to why spam instead of work or virus will depend on what the primary effects are to be isnt it? I mean, if the desired primary effects are for the purpose of defamation, then spam will be better. If the primary effects is for the purpose of doing a DDOS on a particular target, then of couse a worm or virus will be more effective right? I mean, you dont use a hammer to remove a CPU from a motherboard do you? But tell me, what drove the USSR to such desperate spending anyways? Well, if you are to look back at when you had said that to hurt the capitalist, you will need to target their money and not their products, of which I had asked you if there is a bottomless pit where their money magically comes from, or do they need to do something to get their money. Your reply goes into how the al queda obtains their funding, which is not what I am asking at all. Get what I'm saying now? See below in regards to families. And, the point here is to put them in a position where their hands are tied. I did say that before didnt I? I did say that its the conflict is not to do with religion didn't I? And also that religion is just a tool to them here. Now, what is it that drove such people to such measures in the first place? Sure, there will be those cold calculating planners who will think that way, but are you sure it is the same for the entire rank and file? I mean, arent you generalizing too much here? Well, as I had said, the topic in discussion in this thread is in regards to the US vs. those in the middle east is it not?
And twisted out of context as usual. Why do I say that? Because I actually said that "acts of terrorism are... mundane acts of violence by individuals", not that they are acts of individual violence. There's a really big difference, even if you can't see it or choose not to. Let me spell it out for you. Terrorists generally do not work alone. Oh, you have the odd ones here and there, but generally, they operate under an organization. Agreed? So, while different individuals may execute acts of terrorism, these are NOT individual acts of violence. They are not independent terrorists creating havoc for their own reasons. They have a common goal. The acts they commit may be in synchrony, simultaneous or individual, but they have a unity in purpose. The post where I stated mundane acts of violence by individuals was in referral to your post where you said that it's all part of a mind game. I have yet to see you present any evidence of such a mind game. I don't think so. I was only asking you to tell us "what is the problem that all terrorists are out to tackle in the first place?" Actually, it's really about whether the US government was actually behind the 9/11 attacks... Err.. I don't understand your second sentence... But I really don't see how you can actually draw a parallel between Chinese commercial pirates and Al Qaeda terrorists... Nope, I don't think MS is that stupid as to stop at the shame campaign in their fight against software piracy. It's a never-ending battle between pirates and software/media company. Business people are not necessarily technically-astute people. He may very well be telling the truth when he said he doesn't know what a root kit is. Maybe they should have asked him if he knew what a root kit DOES. So, the root reason for the Al Qaeda attack is US foreign policy??? Isn't that like clapping with only one hand? I think even Americans will agree with you that many US foreign policies have created tensions around the world. But it would quite naive to just blame it on US foreign policies. The only freedom anyone has is the freedom of choice. People have a choice to do violence unto others or NOT. Terrorists are people too. They had the choice. They chose to do violence. No excuse for that. Okay then, can you clarify for us WHO is the real target of terrorists? Government? Or people? Or just policy (if you can actually target something intangible!)? I didn't claim you claim it to be any genius masterplan. That's the reason why I put quotation marks around the word "genius". The point is many armchair pundits are fond of concocting elaborate schemes and plans. In real life, even simple plans have a real tendency of failing. So, playing any kind of psychological mind game with an enemy you do not actually understand is more likely to fail and backfire than work. Err.. People just ignore spam. Would they actually defame anyone? Seriously, even chain letters on how instant noodles can kill you by coating your intestines with wax have failed to stop anyone from eating instant noodles, what can more chain letters or spam mail do? Worms or viruses are not necessarily meant to do DDOS attacks. Viruses, by definition, are self-replicating. But what they actually do is up to their creators. Frankly speaking, if I wanted to "defame" Microsoft, for example, I would just create malware that exploit weaknesses in their software to destroy or cripple them. That would be far more effective than spam mail that would most likely get filtered out anyway. Certainly not Star Wars. BTW, my father has a very good saying - "It doesn't matter how much you spend. What matters most is how much you make." In other words, it doesn't matter what the USSR is spending. If they can make more money than they spend, they wouldn't be in trouble. Err.. Actually, no. Are you telling me something or asking me something??? Never mind. I'll try to figure out what you are trying to say... Okay, you are asking me if capitalists need to do something to make money. Of course. Same like what terrorists need to do to make more money. It's all a matter of supply and demand. Oh, I know you would love to go after what gives Microsoft millions of what you perceive are free dollars that they don't deserve. But frankly speaking, Apple devotees have tried for years to tumble the juggernaut but have failed. Can Al Qaeda do what Apple and its legion of fanatics have failed? Same goes for the media industry - songs, movies, etc. All have been hit by commercial pirates and freeloaders. But are these people actually out to kill the industry? Actually, no. They rely on the industry. But can Al Qaeda kill the media industry by providing free copies of movies and songs? Very, very unlikely in both scores. As long as there's a demand for legit software and media, the industry will survive. And believe you me, people will actually care if their pirated DVDs or CDs were manufactured by commercial pirates or terrorist organizations. Yes, you did. And didn't I say so that not only will their hands NOT be tied, they will be laughing all the way to the polls? Quite contrary to what Al Qaeda is saying. Perhaps you have inside information on what they actually believe, but I do think their grunts do actually believe they are fighting for Islam. LOL!! I think you are the one who's generalizing here. It's a well known fact that killed terrorists are used as martyrs to inspire more of their compatriots to join their organizations and emulate their feats. Again, it's not. The thread is really about whether the US government was actually behind the 9/11 attacks...
Think about it. How much did an incident like the 9/11 really impacted the US as a whole in the long run? Despite the immediate loses occurred on that day, in terms of overall worth and economical power, that does not really effect the US from a quantitative point of view. Immediate impacts such as the temporary paralyzation of air transport, basically 'causing ppl to feel unsafe in their own homeland and so on, those are caused by fear and uncertainty is it not? Hence the mind game I had been referring to. Next, I'm wondering at your reasoning. Here you now state that there is a common goal, and unity in purpose, then you had said that you had brought up up your previous statement as an argument to me saying that its part of a mind game. Aren't you now contradicting what you had said previously? U know, there is also a big difference between 'The government is not the problem' and 'The <b>entire</b> government is not the problem' too, even if you can't see it or choose not to Which is about the US and the Middle East is it not? Actually, I didn't. You did, when you started comparing them. And yup, of course its a never ending battle. Hence the reason I mentioned attrition in the first place. Despite being technically astute or not, if the purpose of that statement is to defend their actions, on a scale of 1 to 10 for stupidity, how would you grade it? Its only clapping with one hand as you had put it if you are to interpret 'root reason' as the sole and only reason. Btw, are you? Kinda obvious isnt it? The sections of the government responsible for the foreign policy that they oppose? Well, didnt acts like 9/11 also backfire in the long run despite the early shock caused? Hmm, first you had said that there are those who pay attention to spam indeed, and now you say that they just ignore it? Well, of course worms or viruses are not necessarily meant to do DDOS attacks. Did I claim as such? Or are you now suggesting that my statement on worms and viruses being better for DDOS than spam, is as that? Sure, I mean, you can have your own method of wanting to "defame" Microsoft, but 2 things here: - Is Microsoft the only target here? - And, how do u create malware that exploits weaknesses on an organization that's not doing software? Yup, your father's saying is very good indeed. However, aren't you missing out on something here too? The other side of the coin will go like, no matter how much you make, if you spend more than what you make, the ledger will still be in the red? I mean, let's say, should income be RM10, and expense be RM15, u'll be RM5 in debt right? That is basic maths isnt it? So what had caused the USSR to spend more than what they make anyways? Actually, didn't I say much earlier that the point here is not to bring down such industries? But here you are again thinking that the sole purpose of all these is to shut them down for good? Refer back to my earlier posts on the objectives of having such corporations as the targets. Really? But seriously, what makes you think so anyways? Well, religion is a very powerful weapon when used to unite a group of people who has got nothing else they can fall back on. How do you think they managed to recruit the grunts anyways? But seriously, do you think that anybody in their right mind will claim that religion is just a tool for them in such a situation? Duh... that's like committing suicide really. Me generalizing? Really? Here you are trying to equate terrorists KIAed being used as martyrs with rejoicing when family members are killed? If that's not generalizing, then what is? 9/11 is in regards to the US and the Middle East is it not?
Personaly, I think both the government AND Osama was behind it... but that's my opinion... Also, if you were on a hijacked plane and you got one chance to call your mother, would you say: 'Hi mom, this is [insert your FULL name here], you believe me right?' (something like this, it's been a long time since I watched that documentary) But one thing is knows, Bush's government is moved on fear, he DID pass a lot of laws/whatever based solely on 'pass this law or everyone is going to die' crap..
