Dreambuilders - The 4Life Riovida MLM Scam

Discussion in 'Adrian Wong' started by Adrian Wong, Jan 30, 2010.

  1. Adrian Wong

    Adrian Wong Da Boss Staff Member

    I get MLM-related mails all the time, and they just piss me all the time by their ridiculous claims and questionable testimonies. Take a look at the latest one I received on 4Life Riovida...

    I've seen several family members join these MLM schemes and time and time again, losing money and quitting them before joining a new one. There is always a new fad on the horizon, from lingzhi to noni juice and now transfer factors... It's really sickening. They should ban MLMs. They are virtually legalized pyramid schemes! :mad: :mad: :mad:

    I decided to bite the bullet and shoot this reply to my aunt whom I love, but I think really needs a major wake-up call. She has been cheated by these schemes so many times in the past, and Riovida is no different... not when a 500 ml bottle of this stuff costs about RM 120 (US$ 36)!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

    Wake up, people!!!!
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2010
  2. Adrian Wong

    Adrian Wong Da Boss Staff Member

    Here's another "testimonial" on Riovida... :roll:

  3. Adrian Wong

    Adrian Wong Da Boss Staff Member

    I received this reply :

    I hate it when people start quoting doctors as authoritative sources of information. Yes, many doctors know what they are talking about, but like all humans, they are fallible. Yes, that includes ME.

    There are certainly more than a few black sheeps who don't mind sullying their professional credentials for quick money by supporting such pseudoscience babble. I always tell people this - "Don't just rely on what I say. Always get a SECOND OPINION!"

    Anyway, this was my reply :

  4. gwa1952

    gwa1952 Newbie

    As a Network Marketer (not for 4life Riovida) of some 8 years I just had to answer this.

    The fact that some people join MLM/Network Marketing schemes and fail is not the fault of MLM/Network Marketing. Surely the fault lies within the person who joined but did not apply a system.

    It reminds me of when the Beatles joined that TM yogi guy, and then said meditation failed them. Obviously they quit to soon to benefit. As meditation is now a recognized system of calming the mind and body, it is scientifically proven.

    So quitters can bad mouth whatever, but the fact is: it is the quitter who has the problem not necessarily whatever they bad mouth.

    MLM/Network Marketing is a simple and honest way of shifting products from a producer to a customer. It is the same as anyother business model, the only difference being rather than a group of middlemen (marketers, wholesalers, etc), it has a network of ordinary people promoting the goods. It's like all the movies I go to see. Then I tell my friends, "Oh it was really great, you've got to see it". So they take my word and go along to the theatre. I don't get paid, but I've just made a sale for the theatre, the production company, the movie stars, etc. So my word of mouth is generating income and paying the wages of the movie stars to the lady who cleans the toilets in the local theatre. I see no problem with me getting a cut of the profits that I help generate.

    That's what MLM/Network Marketing is about. Rewarding satisfied customers who generate sales by introducing the products to their friends or whoever. This is free enterprise for the common man or woman.

    So rather than try to rip the MLM/Network Marketing system apart, why not focus on why people fail. People fail for so many reason. Just as we have doctors who fail their patients and induce unnecessary suffering and/or death. We have policemen who fail by abusing their power and beat up women for being drunk or whatever. We have scientists who fail. I mean how many times did Edison fail before he got the right formula for the electric lamp? Failure is just part of the problem, lack of understanding is the real problem.

    I also would add that without taking my daily supplements of vitamin and minerals, I'd not be enjoying the health that I do. Obviously those with a vested interest do not want to hear success stories of those who use supplements or alternative medicines, but the facts speak for themselves. Real people are benefiting from these sort of products, whether sold by MLM or the local drug store!

    I would also add, that only 1 out of every 5 business get beyond their 1st year. Should we put a blanket ban on all new start up's? Just like the FDA, you do not have an objective view, just a biased opinion.
  5. zy

    zy zynine.com Staff Member

    Real men & women doesn't need supplements :mrgreen:

    I don't even remember when is the last time I took vitamin C and I rarely get fever and cold. I didn't even bother taking flu-shots :mrgreen: And I eat rather unhealthy. Not McD everyday or something like that, just drink lots of water. I dont take much candy or other drinks other than water. :thumb: Need more exercise right now :mrgreen: I need running shoes :mrgreen:

    The last time I took a supplement from some MLM related product. I actually felt weaker and got sick even more often :nuts:

    Plus, MLM doesn't work for everyone. It is only beneficial for those very very very determined business minded people with marketing skills.
    My parents join one of this scheme once, they quit because they aren't determined and it takes a lot of effort and time.

    Screw health food :mrgreen:
  6. gwa1952

    gwa1952 Newbie

    It's just his reactionary "They should BAN MLM. They are virtually legalized pyramid schemes!" ignorance that I'm addressing. Doewsn't the guy realize that every form of business is a "pyramid scheme", yes even those operated by the government. I mean, look at the banking system - pyramid scheme. Look at insurance - pyramid scheme. Look at our retirement pensions - pyramid scheme. Look at the McDonalds - pyramid scheme. Look at Walmart - pyramid scheme. Any system which has money filtering downard is a pyramid scheme by definition. Any system (banks, pensions, etc) which relies upon money coming in to pay money out is a pyramid scheme.

    I also question his belief in the FDA and big Pharma, how corrupt are those guys???
  7. Adrian Wong

    Adrian Wong Da Boss Staff Member

    Reactionary? I've seen with my own eyes how MLM schemes work.

    First of all, MLM schemes encourage their sellers to target family and friends. This means the seller is leveraging on his relationship (and yes, pity from friends and relatives) to push products. Basically, you should buy this stuff because I'm your brother/sister/cousin/friend/etc.

    Some, like Amway, do not actually focus on selling their products, but instead try to sign up as many resellers or "business partners" as they can. In fact, this is one of the key selling points of their program. Build up your network so your downlines will generate passive income for you!

    Who doesn't want passive income (read : free money) from such a network, right? So, instead of selling products, they sign up as many folks as possible, telling each one that he can be an independent business owner too and create unlimited passive income. The truth is as more people sign up, the market gets smaller. Eventually, there will not be enough buyers to sustain the market and it all falls down. Sounds like a pyramid scheme, doesn't it?

    Worse of all, none of these MLM schemes actually pay their "business partners" anything. Their reason? They are independent business owners. Wow.. And they keep touting "passive income". The reality is most of these MLM participants are working for FREE, with no benefits at all!

    In actual fact, most participants LOSE money because they are encouraged to attend seminars and buy "self-help" materials - all of which cost money. Many are also encouraged to buy large amounts of products upfront to maintain certain levels, or get promoted. It's insane. It's like financial suicide!

    To call legit retail business a pyramid scheme is IDIOTIC. Don't try to justify a predatory business practice by slinging mud at proper business practices.

    When I go to the bank to take a loan or deposit my savings, the bank doesn't try to sign me up as a loan agent and leverage my relationship with others to sell them products.

    Similarly, when I go to McDonald's, I buy a burger and I pay them for it. It's a straightforward transaction. No hanky panky. No attempts to sign me up as a McDonald's reseller. I do not have to go beg my aunt to buy some burgers from me because she should support my efforts to be financially independent. Nuts!

    If you need to rely on a relationship or pity to push your products, you know what that makes you? A BEGGER, a PANHANDLER, not a business owner.

    If you really believe in MLM, well, that's your right, but be honest about what it really is. I have more respect for thieves because at least they do not try to delude themselves that they are robbing people to make the world a better place.

    Attempting to cover up what's obviously a predatory business practice will only make you look stupid, especially when you say money filters down in a pyramid scheme. Dude, the money goes UP the pyramid, never down. :roll:

    PS. Pointing your finger at someone else and saying that they are corrupt doesn't mean you aren't corrupt yourself.
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2010
  8. gwa1952

    gwa1952 Newbie

    You've obviously got a huge chip on your shoulder as they say. The banking system and all money "services" are pyramid schemes and if you care to look into the practices of the money system you'll see that for yourself. And what about doctors, pushing drugs (often unnecessarily so). Now I'm not saying ban doctors, but the fact remains (again based on objective research), that many drugs themselves are often unproven while being prescribed, plus there are all the side effects.

    Some MLM companies may allow their distributors to hassle friends and family, reputable ones do not. Just as a reputable company will not tolerate spammers and the spammer will find themselves kick out.

    Again I could quote endless lists of unreputable house builders, plumbers, doctors, teachers, scientists, policemen, etc. Of course there is corruption in every form of business or service, but to single out one type of business practice as illegitimate is just stupid.

    It is not the model at fault, that is the point I'm making. Building downlines is just one aspect. If the products are of quality, they will sell and why not introduce them to your family and friends. As I already said, that what we all do anyway, but we don't get paid. That is the only difference between a MLM product and a conventional product. If I enjoy using Walmart toothpaste and say to my sister, "Hey, this is great stuff, you should try it". I don't get paid. If I say, "try this neways toothpaste, it has none of the bad chemicals in it and works so well". I will get paid a commission. So what. That's business. Everyone buys from someone!!!

    As for McDonalds, don't even go there. They've had lawsuits, they've had bad press, they pay poorly, etc, etc.

    You are just being silly as you are stubbornly against all MLM. What about famers, some of their practices are beyond barbaric. |So where does it end? It ends with your informed choice, not an opinion, not because you want to rant against something - anything. It all comes down to real information. And the fact is the vitamins and other products I get from my Network Marketing company are far superior to those in the drugstore! I pay for quality and I don't pay double what I would if I had to purchase the equivalent elsewhere. It's simple economics.

    So do you also want a blanket ban on all forms of advertising, because they are "predatory"? If you are a real doctor, how do you get patients? How do you get the drugs you prescribe? It's all advertising!!!

    You have little grasp of that which you think you understand.
  9. Chai

    Chai Administrator Staff Member

    You made some good points early on, but the more I read, it shows you are just as typical as a normal MLM salesman.

    You too are making sweeping statements. How do you know the vitamins you are getting are FAR SUPERIOR to the drug stores? Based on what?
  10. gwa1952

    gwa1952 Newbie

    Firstly I'm not advertising any products and secondly nor am I promoting our company. Just trying to clarify that MLM is not a scam and that every form of business has its failures and rogues.

    I say superior due to the quality of ingredients, and based on the volume of ingredients. Most vitamin tablets in the drugstore are synthetic derivatives, not natural vitamins at all. Many claim to have say 1000mg of vitamin C, but they don't state whether this is natural or sythnetic. Nor do a lot of consumes know that vitamin C is amplified and more useful to the body when combined with other natural chemicals, such as bioflavonoids. So information is essential.

    Plus it is the bioactivity of the ingredients that count and the bioavailablity. So it's not much use swallowing a pill if most of that goes straight through your intestines and out the other end more or less intact! It has to be easily broken down in the stomach and absorded. So what is the coating of the pill, what type of capsule, etc?

    Again, I'm not saying it's just MLM companies who produce great vitamins or supplements, as most MLM companies actually buy in their product from one of the big three manufacturers. There are many really good products on the market and I have a friend who uses certain products from Baseline Nutritionals as well as some of ours - as ours is cheaper but the same quality and ingredient volume.

    Basically it's like all things on sale, you get what you pay for. The more expensive, the better quality and vice versa.

    The essential point I'm making is that all business is business and it matters little about the names we give to certain business models, they all operate exactly the same. One person at the top dictates how the money is distributed. With MLM/Network Marketing, everyone has an equal opportunity to make money if they put in the effort and don't try to fool people by making silly claims. We have real products, a real opprtunity to make money. I mean, McDonalds is a franchise, and it takes the owner of the franchise years to recoup their investment. Avon is a type of MLM, it takes maybe $100 to start and you can earn according to your effort via direct selling (yes, even to friends).

    We could if we so wished, pick every form of business to pieces. We could ban the lotteries as they may cause misery when your ticket doesn't win. We could ban competition within the market so that only a handful of companies are producing the goods. It's just stupid and restrictive, but most of all, it ignores the one factor - choice.

    I have a friend who claims that "all ownership is theft". To him no one has a right to claim ownership as no one can possibly claim authority over land, trees, any resource. Now, I can't argue with that. I used to try, but realized how ridiculous I was being. I was just sticking to an opinion. Of course no one can own anything. But as things stand, we are caught up "in a business system" as he would put it. So my stance is that I'm willing to change (he advocates co-operative living, no bater just everyone living together for one another), but at present I'll just have to make money either via working for someone or setting up a business of my own. I chose that latter and it is working out fine. I provide products which do work and I'm rewarded for that service.
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2010
  11. Adrian Wong

    Adrian Wong Da Boss Staff Member

    Please. You are making a fool out of yourself. The definition of a pyramid scheme is this :

    "A pyramid scheme is a non-sustainable business model that involves promising participants payment primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, rather than from any real investment or sale of products or services to the public."

    Which bank do you know promises you "payment for enrolling other people" to enroll even more people to sign up for loans/bank accounts?

    And what has doctors "pushing drugs" have to do with a pyramid scheme? Do doctors pay their patients to sign up other people to sign up more people? If they don't, they are NOT a pyramid scheme. Stop trying to sow FUD.

    Officially, MLM companies will not ask you to specifically target friends and families, but the nature of the business is such that your obvious market is your IMMEDIATE circle of friends and relatives. It's like putting a tiger in a chicken coop. What do you expect it to do? Break out of the coop and go hunting in the jungle? Don't be a fool.

    Again, what the hell has corruption got to do with MLM and pyramid schemes? Stop diverting attention from what's wrong with MLM by pointing out that people in any profession are fallible.

    MLM is not illegitimate but it's very close to it. It's one thin line away from being an outright pyramid scheme. It is still very much like a pyramid scheme even if NO ONE is corrupt in the MLM company. That's the difference.

    No, the model is at fault. That's the only difference between this type of business and all other type of businesses.

    If the products are good, why can't the company sell DIRECTLY via the Internet, mail order or even via regular channels like retail stores, pharmacies and supermarkets?

    The problem when you get paid for making a recommendation is that it is now in your BEST INTEREST to recommend the product for the commission, not because it's the better product. You now have vested interest in the product and therefore, CANNOT be counted to give unbiased recommendations.

    The other thing is what makes YOUR recommendation any better than mine? Reputable companies like Colgate or Walmart do NOT need to rely on YOUR recommendation or pay YOU commission to get you to recommend their products to your friends and relatives. They know that their products are good enough that people will want to keep buying them.

    LOL! Please stop diverting attention by slinging mud at them. You called them a pyramid scheme. I just proved to you that they are not. Why stop talking about McDonald's?

    I hope you are referring to "farmers" because I really have no idea what a "famer" is, unless it's someone whose job is to make fame. Even so, what barbaric practices are you talking about? Are you smoking pot or something, cause you just don't sound right, my friend.

    Yes, I agree totally with you - it ends with your INFORMED choice. Unfortunately, I can't say that you are very well-informed, at least not from what you have been posting.

    1. Most MLM products are MORE expensive than products that I can get at any supermarket or pharmacy. In fact, they are usually A LOT more expensive. So, please don't fool us by saying you save money. That's utter nonsense.

    2. Unless you are malnourished, supplements are generally USELESS. That's why they are called SUPPLEMENTS, because they are supposed to supplement an incomplete diet. As long as we have a good diet that provides all the essential nutrients, we do NOT require supplements to "live long and prosper!"

    Don't put words in my mouth. When did I say that advertising is predatory?

    Doctors, at least over here, do NOT advertise for patients. Neither do we get or prescribe our drugs by advertising. Seriously, your ignorance is making you look like a fool... :roll:
  12. Adrian Wong

    Adrian Wong Da Boss Staff Member

    I agree that every form of business has its failures and rogues. As I pointed out earlier, it just means that humans are fallible.

    MLM per se is not a scam. But most are designed to function like pyramid schemes. It's like communism. In theory, it sounds pretty good - equality for all. But in reality - it's terrible.

    Similarly, MLM sounds like it offers people a way to create their own businesses with low start-up costs and risks, but in reality, they create virtual slaves of their participants. Again, most function like pyramid schemes.

    Let me cut to the chase. If you want natural, just eat the damn orange! That's as natural as it gets. Plus, on top of vitamin C, you get other nutrients like vitamin B, iron, zinc, folate, etc. More importantly, you get fibre! As a bonus, you get the pleasure of eating it.

    Why do you need 1000 mg of vitamin C a day? We only need like 90 mg a day. Most of it will just pass out through your urine. It's like pissing away your money. :nuts:

    Please... You can get cheaper supplements at pharmacies and hypermarkets. :hand:

    Except we would be buying from people who have vested interest in selling us ONE particular brand. When I go to the pharmacy to buy a supplement, the pharmacist doesn't have any vested interest in promoting any particular brand, so he can better recommend the better product.

    No, they do NOT operate the same way. Stop talking nonsense. How can MLMs be equated to the business practices of McDonald's or a bank, for example?

    Let me clarify your statement. In MLM, every DOWNLINE has the equal opportunity to make money. Their UPLINE has a vested interest in getting more downlines to build their passive income for them, not actually doing any real work selling the product.

    If McDonald's franchises do not make tons of money for their owners, do you think there would be so many McDonald's branches around the world? Please stop talking nonsense.

    Sure, people have a choice to be fools. But that doesn't mean we should not clamp down on predatory business practices. It doesn't matter whether it's some big shot like Bernie Madoff or an MLM scheme, anything that's unethical and predatory must not be tolerated.

    Okay, and we should all listen to this friend of yours? Why? Because he's your friend? :nuts:

    Perhaps you are one of the very few people who actually provides good service to your clients and NEVER EVER pressured them to buy your products just because of your familial relationship. If that's true, good for you!
  13. Both of my parents have done MLM in the past. Recently, my mother has latched on to a new MLM, Trivita Nopalea cactus juice.

    Apparently, my mother receives a list of people that have ordered Nopalea recently through TV ads. I'm not sure why, but one of her tasks is to call those people and ask if they have received their shipment of miracle cactus juice (my derisive words, not hers). Listening to those phone calls, I feel sickened and ashamed for my mother. She asks them what their ailments are, how long they've been on the cactus juice, and if they've had any good results. If they say they've had no results, she advises them that for some people, it takes longer for the juice to work, and to keep taking it. My mother has zero medical training. She is basing her enthusiasm and conviction on the fact that she herself took the juice and she thinks it helped her diabetes. She sounds like a quack doctor honestly, and it's disgusting. These people are ailing and desperate with who knows what kinds of various conditions, and this is nothing more than preying on that desperation.

    I haven't come to terms with that realization: My mother is preying on people who are ailing and desperate. Unreal.

    Nothing I say can convince them that it's a scam. They know that I think it's a scam, as I do all MLM's, but they don't care. They just label me as "negative."

    Google doesn't work, as MLM's apparently have mastered the art of googlebombing/spamdexing. Doing a google search for "Nopalea scam" or "Trivita scam" or anything of that sort only results in bogus pages of people trying to sell Nopalea.

    Actually, I found this site by doing a google search in which I tried to circumvent the googlebombing. I searched for "cactus juice scam -Nopalea" specifically excluding those search results that have "Nopalea" in them since I know that that search term has been successfully googlebombed.

    I'm not sure what my point is. Just had to vent.
  14. Adrian Wong

    Adrian Wong Da Boss Staff Member

    You are not alone, KetchupPackets. :beer:

    Unfortunately, when this cactus juice fad fades away, it will be replaced by another miracle product, and yet another. These guys just keep switching products to keep ahead of the collapsing pyramid. The only losers are those who got fooled into it.

    I'm glad you realized it. All you can do now is try to limit the "damage" your mother incurs from each MLM...
  15. Nailaffairs

    Nailaffairs Newbie

    I do agree that MLM product has it's benefit , just have a big question mark for it value for monies spend .....almost all health supplements product has known fruit products that boost immunity , so for unhealth users will feel a notably difference in their health & that a seller . I would rather blend freah fruits & veg to maximize it nutritional values ...every day .
  16. Adrian Wong

    Adrian Wong Da Boss Staff Member

    Good point! Why not eat fresh fruits and vegetables instead? They are better and cheaper.
  17. jackmiller

    jackmiller Newbie

    The main difference between MLM and pyramid scheme is; MLM is only concerned with sales of products and services to end user on the other hand pyramid scheme only recruit new members.
    Home Profit Masters
  18. Adrian Wong

    Adrian Wong Da Boss Staff Member

    Agreed. But most MLMs end up as pyramid schemes... :)
  19. The_YongGrand

    The_YongGrand Just Started

    Pyramid schemes are dangerous. Some of my acquaintances fell into the trap of the uh... "scented lamp" thing and lost thousand of ringgits. :faint:
  20. Adrian Wong

    Adrian Wong Da Boss Staff Member

    LOL! Lampe Berger?

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